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#1 Posted at 2007-08-22 22:31        
     
Hi,
I'm having a problem with 02 at the moment, see I'm trying to import an .obj file exported from blender. Everything goes fine, but once in O2 my normals are acting very strange. When i'm on the far side I can see the faces fine, but when I look at it from close up , they just all go invisable. The verts and such are all still there just not showing when close up, if you get what I mean...really confusing me. I can post a picture if it will help.

I have tried recalculating the normals in both programs (both inside and out), and tried all the different export options.. but am still left wondering what I am doing wrong. At this stage, i'm thinking it has something to do with the blender export .obj script, as I had afew problems with normals on other meshes which I exported to .obj and then onto XNormal. Sadly the .3ds script does not export kfdata so I am unable to use another export option besides .obj.

Thanks for reading thus far into my problem, hopefully someone has encounted something like this before and can help out :dontgetit

Edit: here is a quick picture showing whats happening, will keep trying hopefully its just something I have missed with the exporting of normals.
http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=okmi5.jpg

This post was edited by Bracks (2007-08-23 00:10, ago)


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#2 Posted at 2007-08-23 10:03        
     
This is a known (for me at least) problem, especially when you put on the 'solid fill faces' on (grey filled faces). It somehow has to do with depth view and angles you are looking at it.

On a closer look on the wireframe view it makes me wonder in your situation, as wireframe normally has no problem showing the edges (and so faces). in your case i think it got messed up and mirrored some faces.

TEST: Take your vertex selection tool (forgot shortcut key atm) but it is the icon with the two black point and one red with cursor in corner...
Select the four vertexes that make out your face (or three in case of tris) so the four point should turn red now (marked). Have a look at the button left, it should tell you if you indeed now have four point selected, but most important if you have 1 face selected. If so, press W (reverse face).
Anyway, this will suck if you will need to fix every single face in your model (and probebly lods).
I think you problem lays in the so called Xform. No experience with Blender but since it is 3Dmax based there shoudl be an option somewhere 'reset Xform'. This should prevent this issue normally, same as unwanted merged points (in details) with exported objects.
Good luck.


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#3 Posted at 2007-08-23 21:10        
     
Thanks DaSquade.
That seems to be the problem. Sadly though, I cannot find an option like that in blender. Will keep looking and searching for abit longer, but I think I might just leave it and carry on with something else as it seems abit much to select each face one by one :con. Not to mention I will probably miss afew and they will cause troubles later. Next time I will watch what the normals are doing while making it and not play round with them so much. Thanks again for the help really appreciate it.

This post was edited by Bracks (2007-08-23 21:18, ago)


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#4 Posted at 2007-08-25 01:15        
     
Np, but i think you will need to find the problem source as you will encounter it with all your models or at least there will be a change. Sometimes it is very hard to find them..at least i found out the hard way.
Not sure if you have 3D max (guess not) but at least there is a Xform resetter. Maybe google 'blender - x form' (i didn't found much atm). You can always try the BIS forum as you will have more change of finding modellers.
Good luck.


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#5 Posted at 2007-08-25 02:51        
     
Hehe, yeah I spent a good while searching out every feature to do with normals in blender(and blender has a zillion of them :D). Sadly in the end I didn't find much in relation to xform/feature. The strange thing is, when I opened the models (exported to .obj) into another 3d app(anim8or), all the normals are perfectly find. However when I exported it from there, it stil went funny in O2.

So from that I figured it may have something to do with the O2 import settings. So I played round with them for awhile and found if I ticked the invert Y, and invert X axis on import (and up the angle abit) but not Z.. funny enough, everything came out fine exept the tracks. Which won't be all that much trouble to flip.

Anyway thanks again for taking the time to help out :)

This post was edited by Bracks (2007-08-25 02:57, ago)


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#6 Posted at 2007-08-30 22:49        
     
Shame thier is not a better way to fix all face in O2 imports from blender.

I am using blender myself after being a hardcore O2 man. I found blender extremely easy to use after getting to know its weird UI.

I have yet to try and import into O2 but I have read most of the problems people are facing. O2PE is also still not final, maybe what you are experiencing is not the norm?, maybe its a bug that needs addressing?
I am going to try and import some of my stuff from blender into O2 after the weekend so I will keep you posted on how it went.

Can I just check that in blender you :

mesh> vertices> remove doubles

Mesh> Normals> Recalculate outside

Mesh> Normals> Recalculate inside

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#7 Posted at 2007-08-31 01:04        
     
Yes that is correct, I even turned normals on and checked all the little blue things were facing the way I wanted :)

But yeah, it's far from as bad as the picture in the first post. You just have to play with the "invert X,Y,Z"(with .obj) at the import and it pretty much turns out ok. Just trying to figure out how to get my normals maps and textures in correctly at the moment...another battle :D

Anyway, I hope yours imports ok. Best of luck with it.


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#8 Posted at 2007-08-31 18:57        
     
Just done a quick .3ds import/export, blender> Anim8or> O2PE.

I only get problem faces on objects with anything I mirrored in Blender. For instance the Wheels, the original ones are fine, the one I duplicated and reversed are wrong in O2.

There are quite a few options to choose from in the Blender .3ds export screen so I will play with these and see what come of it.

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#9 Posted at 2007-09-19 15:37        
     
@ Bracks,

I was UV unwrapping some stuff earlier and I noticed something I have not came across yet in blender that may be a cause of your problem?

In O2 when you select 4 vertices's and add a face it only places ONE visible face, if you add another face to the same selected vertices's add another face (but facing in the opposite direction of course)

With blender, by default it creates 2 sided faces, BUT when selected, it only shows 1 face 4 vertices's, in O2 it will show 2 faces 4 vertices's - does that make sense?

There is an option button in blender to turn off so that makes only 1 face rather than a double sided one. so, basically you can select all your model hit the button to use only one sided faces THEN CTRL+N to recalculate normals outside, I have not tried this yet in O2 but I bet it plays a big part in the face errors we are getting. It certainly is something we should keep unchecked anyway for better compatibility with O2.

the button is in the Mesh Panel and is titled `Double Sided`. After I unchecked the Double sided box my faces were all screwed in blender which leads me to think that is the cause of our problem exporting to O2. recalculation the normals (outside) fixed them though :)

Let me know if this helps mate

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#10 Posted at 2007-09-19 21:04        
     
Thanks JB,
I actually tried that button, however I can't remember selecting all the verts first, so I will look into that :)

I have everything working in O2 now though, because the problem faces where all connected to the same object. I just selected the option in o2 which selects all connected verts and then selected the problem areas (all wheels on the right side and the tracks on the right side) and turned them. Which only took afew seconds. Are your problem faces all connnected to the same geometry?

Anyway, thanks again for the update.


Edit: Just to go over, the main problem for me at the start was everything seemed to have the funny problem. If you look in the first post picture, you can see that in blender the drivers hatch is on the right side, Mg on the left. Then in O2 it is reversed, hatch on left, mg on right. So after inverting all the axis on import, I was just left with the tracks/wheels on the right side which had problems. So just don't forget to check that also :)

This post was edited by Bracks (2007-09-19 21:17, ago)


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#11 Posted at 2007-09-19 21:27        
     
I have found that exporting form blender to .OBJ, then importing to .OBJ to O2PE is easier but all faces are still reversed, simply selecting all faces and hitting `W` to reverse them is fine.

My main problems is this.

I started out modeling in O2 years ago so it became my intro to the 3d world. I didn't realise that it is quite different to other 3d progs as it was designed from the outset for the game engine not a universal 3d app.

I learned that to keep poly count down it was easier to create things like sheet metal and any other relatively thin objects it was easier to only create them with say 4 vertices's and a apply 2 faces.

For example if I wanted to create a square cardboard target I could simply place 4 vertices's in a roughly square shape then apply a face, this obviously causes problems as only one side of the face is visible. The back of the target would be transparent. So, with the same 4 vertices's selected you simply hit F6 and create another face on the same vertices's. problem solved. much less polys than if I had created a traditional box shape and made it from 8 verts and 6 faces. It doesn't sound like many verts and faces are saved but on a model like a tank where 1000`s of polys are involved you can save over 1000 polys this way - a big difference.

This is where the problem lies, I still model like that in blender with a positive aim to a low poly count. But in apps like blender there is no option (or none that I know of) that allows another face to be created on 3 or 4 verts!

so, my choices are to 75% model in blender, then go into O2 and start picking at verts and creating any faces that I want two sides to. OR up the poly count and go for traditional box modeling adding IMHO un-needed faces and verts.

I am really getting into blender and find it easy to work with once you get the hang of it, its a shame but it does seem like creating all content in O2 would be easier :con

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#12 Posted at 2007-09-19 21:57        
     
Ok sorry, I understand what you mean now. I actually went though something like this not long ago with creating a cargo net ;).
You clearly know alot more about this than me, so have most likly tried all this, but what I found kind of worked, was if I alt+d and duped the objected in the same place or better, pressed extrude then right clicked to cancell, which created a double in the same place. I then turned draw normals on, and made sure they faced the correct direction. But I don't think that is what you are meaning, wish I could help but I can understand now why your having problems. Good luck with it.

Edit:Opps sorry, just forget I mentioned the extrude method, seems it creates six faces.

This post was edited by Bracks (2007-09-19 22:05, ago)


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#13 Posted at 2007-09-19 22:14        
     
no worries mate, anything I find out I will share.

I think a post on the blender forums is needed for this one :)

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