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#31 Posted at 2012-11-07 20:30        
     
Looks Great!
How detailed will be the cities/what part of Israel is in this project? 20x20 KM are (ironically, Israel is small.) smaller than Israel, so how much will you fit into one map?


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#32 Posted at 2012-11-08 13:04        
     
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOp47BFxC7I new video


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#33 Posted at 2012-11-09 20:13        
     
Keep working on it Dan!

You're beeing supported over a few Israeli forums now.

Great job, we can't wait to test it.

If you need some help with the project please contact me, I have a few guys who can land a hand.


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#34 Posted at 2012-11-13 06:05        
     
# Caterpillar : Keep working on it Dan!

You're beeing supported over a few Israeli forums now.

Great job, we can't wait to test it.

If you need some help with the project please contact me, I have a few guys who can land a hand.


If you know someone who can create models, I desperately need at least 2 variants of an Olive Tree and a Mustard Tree.
and if you guys have any ideas that could go into this project, let me know, especially if you live in Israel, because you know the terrain better than me. Pictures of the terrain would be great.


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#35 Posted at 2012-12-14 01:11        
     
The border itself is well over 200km long, so not really appropriate for an Arma map. Even just the part past Kerem Shalom is ~12-13km.

Google earth seems to have pretty good detail of the area. Not much in terms of actual building structure, but you can definitely see where buildings are placed quite clearly.

A much bigger problem than the trees I think will be the buildings. There are many buildings (in some areas the majority of them) with 3+ floors in Rafah/Gaza. Not to mention Israeli buildings are often quite bigger than standard Arma/Arma2/OA buildings as well.

As for terrain elevation, at least most of Rafah/Gaza is pretty flat in terms of elevation - Kerem Shalom is only ~100m above sea level. While the following website is a bit difficult to use and read, it can give you a good idea about the elevations: http://amudanan.co.il/ However, keep in mind that there are alot of terrain features there that would only be visible with micro-terrain technology, which is one of the main things that made that area so dangerous, as a terrorist could easily sneak up on you by using those terrain features to his advantage, and even the 25m-tall towers were not always able to spot them in time.

For any map, searching for Kerem Shalom (כרם שלום in hebrew, you can just copy paste it to the search box) will get you to the general area I think you are trying to create.


Photos are hard to find, and especially hard to connect with the geographical location, but this is what I could find so far:

This is from 2005 or so, when the famous wall was still under construction.
http://cafe.themarker.com/media/t/434/641/file_0_original.jpg
Another one of the same location:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shmulik/46355520/
Google earth area: https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=31.298721,34.234511&daddr=Kerem+Shalom,+Israel&hl=en&sll=31.292487,34.243934&sspn=0.015604,0.024247&geocode=%3BCeo59JbftLRVFXmB3AEdDyQLAilhsQ2yKZP9FDFEo-k8AA5s5g&t=h&doflg=ptk&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=16&z=16
Photo was taken from the 'A' marker looking towards the SSE.

The red-ish metal wall you see in the distance in the above photo can be seen more closely here (though older, from May 2004):
http://www.nrg.co.il/images/archive/408x153/210/698.jpg

It's hard to tell exactly where that part is on the map and I don't really remember, though you can get an idea based on the first photo. In fact, I don't even know how much of the wall is still standing. I know for sure that at least parts of it were destroyed quickly after Israel abandoned the area in 2005. The tower/outpost itself which you can see on the wall I think was also disassembled completely and evacuated before the IDF left the area.


This one is more to the south - I'm pretty sure it was taken from the outpost right next (north side) of Rafah border cross, looking towards the NNW.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/7/72/Philadelphie-route01.jpg
Google earth area: https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=31.249589,34.257923&daddr=Kerem+Shalom,+Israel&hl=en&ll=31.255606,34.257882&spn=0.01561,0.024247&sll=31.249654,34.261154&sspn=0.007806,0.012124&geocode=%3BFXmB3AEdDyQLAilhsQ2yKZP9FDFEo-k8AA5s5g&t=h&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=17&z=16
Note that on google earth you will see absolutely nothing there, and it's no mistake - The outpost has been completely evacuated in 2005 when the IDF left the area, which includes even the concrete fortifications you see at the lower part of the photo.

Some more photos which I obviously won't be able to locate for you:
http://mashallahnews.com/?p=5309

Bird view photos of Kerem Shalom:
http://www.lowshot.com/cat.aspx?cat_id=153

I'll post more stuff if I can find any on the web.

This post was edited by galzohar (2012-12-14 02:14, ago)


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#36 Posted at 2012-12-16 16:08        
     
"The border itself is well over 200km long, so not really appropriate for an Arma map. Even just the part past Kerem Shalom is ~12-13km."


Yeah, this would be way to big to do Which is why I could only do a 20km X 20km portion. But in the future, i plan on making a map of the Eliat Area Israel/Saudi/Egypt so we would have a southwest border and a Southeast border in our tool bag. But a definate NOOOO! on making an entire southern border map. its mainly desert anyway and the default arma desert map can be used for this.


Thanks for the help, i really appreciate it.

Added 38 minutes later:

Also at the moment Phaeden (maker of MCAGCC 29 palms map)is working on creating those white "greenhouses" that I see so much of in Gaza. will be a nice touch. As for Buildings, I am limited, But there is more than enough options out there "third party" We will have to make due. The Rolling hills will be an issue as far as being close to the actual thing as is in this pic , the Map is mostly flat but I have been tinkering with the contours of the terrain to get some dunes and hills added in. It might not be as real as is in this photo but it will be ok for ArmA 2.

Added 8 hours 54 minutes later:

So, Is there only one stretch of wall all the way along the border or two walls running parallel?

Added 2 hours 6 minutes later:

Sand Dunes and vegetation coming along(not finished) I am now working on the Partition Wall along the Gaza/Egypt border(Philadelphi corridor).








This post was edited by DanWelch (2012-12-17 03:51, ago)


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#37 Posted at 2012-12-17 11:58        
     
So, Is there only one stretch of wall all the way along the border or two walls running parallel?

Are we talking Israel/Gaza or Israel/Egypt?

In any case, "the wall" is usually not a wall at all, but a fence.


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#38 Posted at 2012-12-17 12:17        
     
Have you thought about the tunnels between Egypt and Gaza? They are strategically important and should be on a map like this, but I don't know if it is possible to make them. Maybe you can "fake" a tunnel by constructing a tunnel with a piece of flat surface above it as an object, then place the whole thing into a narrow trench on the map, so that it looks as if the tunnel was underground.


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#39 Posted at 2012-12-17 14:41        
     
I have been thinking of the tunnels over the past few days and I would love to have them in the map. Only problem is...This is ArmA lol. Its not very "underground" and Tunnel Friendly". Very hard to do. Visitor will only allow you to do so much.

Added 1 minute later:

# golani_2 : Are we talking Israel/Gaza or Israel/Egypt?

In any case, "the wall" is usually not a wall at all, but a fence.


Both. I see in the photos that the Concrete T-Wall fence is there but from what I can see it is a single stretch of fenceline and in some parts there are two sets of fence line running parallel. I do understand that in some places its a concrete T-wall and in other places its either a metal fence or a wirefence.

In the pics above...this is of the Northern Border with Egypt/Gaza. Almost to the coast.

This post was edited by DanWelch (2012-12-17 16:08, ago)


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#40 Posted at 2012-12-17 16:07        
     
# DanWelch : I have been thinking of the tunnels over the past few days and I would love to have them in the map. Only problem is...This is ArmA lol. Its not very "underground" and Tunnel Friendly". Very hard to do. Visitor will only allow you to do so much.
Yes, you can't make holes into the map surface. That's why I said, try to make the tunnel as a big object and place it onto the map like a building. The map only has to have a trench with steep sides, and the object has to have a desert ground texture and maybe a few rocks, brushes etc. on top. Then it will look like the tunnel is underground. Here, I made a sketch, I hope you understand what I mean:


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#41 Posted at 2012-12-17 16:46        
     
# Brainbug : Yes, you can't make holes into the map surface. That's why I said, try to make the tunnel as a big object and place it onto the map like a building. The map only has to have a trench with steep sides, and the object has to have a desert ground texture and maybe a few rocks, brushes etc. on top. Then it will look like the tunnel is underground. Here, I made a sketch, I hope you understand what I mean:


nice sketch! I will think about it. I still have much to do. Doing this will cause me to have to backtrack and rework some things but this would be great to have. I will try to put something together in Visitor3 to test it out.


Modedit:
Please do not quote images! Quoted image removed.

Added 4 hours 18 minutes later:



Modedit:
Please do not quote images! Quoted image removed.

sry forgot about that.

Added 10 minutes later:

So Was the Wall Destroyed in certain spots along the Egypt Gaza Border?? if so I will add some missing and destroyed sections of the wall with rubble, trash etc. If you all have any ideas or current photos of the area let me know.

Added 3 hours 21 minutes later:

This post was edited by DanWelch (2012-12-29 23:13, ago)


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#42 Posted at 2012-12-18 17:27        
     
Tunnels are very tricky indeed. Especially when they need to be very deep and invisible from the top. I'm not sure if it's worth focusing on it too much. It's not like any combatant would go into those tunnels - They're dangerous, especially when you think you might have to fire your weapon or throw a grenade and collapse the whole thing and bury yourself alive! Many have died from tunnel collapses while they were digging them...

The wall itself was broke down in some spots I'm sure, though when I referred to some things as "gone" I meant that they were evacuated completely (as in, loaded with a crane onto a truck to be re-used or recycled), and wasn't referring to wall parts. Some of those were a part of the wall (ex: a pillbox filling in a wall section), but most were just parts of the outposts in the area. In any case, shortly after the evacuation there were photos in the news of people taking down some parts of the wall, but I couldn't find them. Maybe if you dig through articles from the appropriate dates. It's very hard to tell for sure from google earth, but I think it's a pretty good guess that if you don't see the wall on google earth it's probably not there, since there are parts where you can see it.


The large concrete wall is just 1 long wall. Only a small part of it is metal (you can see it in the photos) which was built long before the concrete wall, and actually goes a few meters underground in a failed attempt to stop tunnels. The reason it might look like 2 wall sections is because of the turn the border takes here (check out my google map links for more accurate details of where the photos were taken):




Closer to the egyptian side, there are also sections of fence, barred wires and whatnot. Apparently nothing that can really stop a determined terrorist. When you know that you might get shot any seconds you're not really scared of some barred wire cuts I guess :)

This post was edited by galzohar (2012-12-18 17:40, ago)


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#43 Posted at 2012-12-18 22:04        
     
So what your saying is...Palestinians pretty much have free movement above ground to and fro Gaza and Egypt, with parts of the wall missing?


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#44 Posted at 2012-12-19 00:21        
     
If you have any other ideas to make this blend in better or using other objects let me know.
I'm afraid you can't do it without making your own object, and you have to think bigger. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_smuggling_tunnels
As you see, the tunnel diameter would have to be larger so that you can at least crouch through it (in reality, people seem to be able to walk upright in some, but crouching will do fine for game purposes I think). The inside of tunnels can be a rough concrete texture, no need of elaborate wooden support beams etc. In Gaza it seems to be easier to obtain and handle cement than wood.

I would try to make a piece of desert (as a newly crafted object) and put it on top of it. With the rolling dunes, you should be able to cover the edges between map-desert and object-desert quite well (maybe with a few rocks and brushes). But keep in mind that the tunnel should not be apparent to a human player if he is standing on it, driving over it or flying over in a helicopter. Entrances can be plain holes with a ladder down, then you can place a greenhouse or a shed or whatnot over the hole.

The fence/wall should go over it (after all it is quite pointless to dig a tunnel if you can just walk over there). And the tunnel must be considerably longer, so that you can enter and leave it without being seen by the guards. E.g. escape tunnels in Berlin during the Berlin Wall era had to start and end in the basements of houses, so distance was roughly around 50-100 meters, the longest was 145 meters. Gaza tunnels have to be way longer since the density of possible cover objects is lower and the border strip is wider. I'd say at least around 200 meters, and up to 800 meters (in reality, scale this down to your map size).

The problem of being a death trap where you can shoot through from one end to the other is usually countered by zig-zaging the tunnel. Every 10-20 meters or so it takes a turn of maybe 20 degrees, so that you can never see and shoot further than the next corner. A tunnel like that is still dangerous, but people are desperate, the surface is even more dangerous.

I would make two objects that you can puzzle together. One straight 10 or 20 meter long piece with open ends, and one entrance piece with a hole and ladder (a distance of 5 meters between desert surface and bottom of the tunnel would seem appropriate). Then you can puzzle together any tunnel you like by overlapping the adjacent parts, similar to plumbing pipes. I made another sketch (the "snake thing" being a bird's eye view of a complete tunnel):



Maybe it is better to keep the blue part and the fake desert cover object separate for better adjustment options.

Also the tunnel should be destructible, i.e. a big bomb or a few satchels should make it impassable respectivly open it to the surface. i.e. if you have managed to make a good tunnel, try to do a fitting damage model.

I'm so sorry I can't help you in any way. I've often considered starting to learn all this Buldozer and Visitor stuff, but never got around to it. But it might be really worthwhile to develop this tunnel properly. A lot of map scenarios could profit from it, think of tunnels in Afghanistan or Vietnam.

This post was edited by Brainbug (2012-12-19 00:41, ago)


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#45 Posted at 2012-12-19 05:16        
     
Yeah, Im not able to do this atm. (IF ONLY THIS WERE MINECRAFT! LOL) Modeling new objects is greek to me. I will focus on this later down the road but not right now since there is so much more to be done. Great idea though and very possible( but difficult ) to do. I will definitely keep this in mind.

One problem i see with this is road networks would be difficult to place over this object. The texture of the roadway will distort or not show at all. Not to mention walking/driving on the object might be buggy at some point. Ex: falling through, getting stuck etc.

***More photos of the border*** To assist in saving space on this website, I have provided my photobucket album link. I will post only one or two pics on this forum when a major update is complete, you can view more pics by visiting the link below. Thank you

photobucket album
http://s290.beta.photobucket.com/user/usslouisiana/library/ArmA%202%20Israel%20Project



This post was edited by DanWelch (2012-12-19 07:23, ago)