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"Realism" vs freedom (Mission design)
Realism all the way.
Freedom all the way.
A mix of both (specify by post).
Other (specify by post).
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#1 Posted at 2008-02-03 06:49        
     
As we all know Armed Assault is what most gamers consider a very "realistic" game.
Some even go as far as calling it a simulation (i wouldnt go that far but i consider it very realistic).

However... most missions are arcade and far from depicting reality (especially the most popular ones). What Heatseeker is trying to determine is how much realism is enough realism and how much freedom is enough freedom (mission wise) to keep the experience imersive and somewhat "real" while still being enjoyable and fun.

The demand for graphical realism and detail is tremendous when it comes to addons (units, weaponry, vehicles, even "worlds") but as far as missions go... not really.

My impression is that most players enjoy the freedom to use whatever weapon/vehicle/tactic they want, although freedom is a great thing to have it shits all over the tactical nature of the game and the players need to maintain unit cohesion, team tactics, comunication and most of all teamplay!

Now i understand that a fully realistic aproach to mission design would be extremely boring, but on the other hand whats being played out there isnt exactly my idea of "fun".

Please vote and share your opinions/ideas :welcome.


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#2 Posted at 2008-02-03 09:35        
     
I don't play for 4-5 months i guess, but i think I'm on your side :D

I'm more for the "realistic" side, i prefer a mission where the creator sets almost all(at the beginning) than one where you can select everything.

A mission created to be played with some load-out can be much different using another one, removing all the challenges it creates.

I like missions with different approaches, objectives u can complete in any order and some of them "chained", with things u do affecting the rest of the mission.

I see your "freedom" as a run&gun type. Even when i have never been in the Army nor will be i was hoping for a realistic approach in all missions when we talk about teams, weapons, roles, ... so u really have to trust in the others and work together.

I enjoyed so much the Ghost Recon tournament missions while playing them cause of the "tension" and cause the teamwork it involved. Many weren't so fun after playing them again, so it shows how good a simple mission can be when u create the right atmosphere.

So my choice it's mix of both but with 85-90% realistic.


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#3 Posted at 2008-02-03 10:54        
     
I have nothing more to add :)
Big says exactly how I feel about missions as well. This doesnt mean I dont enjoy many missions that have been released cause many are excellent to play.

While prefering a mixture of both I can also enjoy just a well made mission. If people put time and efford in their mission and it shows of while playing it the mission is great IMHO.

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#4 Posted at 2008-02-03 14:42        
     
Im also for a mix betwean both but leaning towards "realism".
In the opf days when there was no JIP respawn in coop was considered blasphemy but with Arma we have persistent servers, JIP and much better performance so it would be a pity not to take advantage of these, however death penalties must be used...

Thanks for sharing your opinions :).


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#5 Posted at 2008-02-06 13:03        
     
Has any one played Soldner Secret Wars?

Yes the game looks bad as it was made in 2003/2004 and the company who made it (Wings) was sacked by Jowood but I think and many of its fan bace today feel the game has the right freedom but in some cases as it's engine is buggs in the animation it dosent have enough Realism.

My point is really people like to play and kill the enemy bit there is a sence of tunnle vision in the way the structure is layed out in most missions.

I know this is the who idea of ARMA, and bugs aside there are few games out there that can compete with it's graphics and gameplay.

However my vote is for Freedom as for a game this has enough balanced realism you could want with todays technology.


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#6 Posted at 2008-02-07 02:23        
     
Hi, i think you didnt understand what i meant... the areas where i question freedom are for example:

Player x has the freedom to choose any weapon he wants, player x picks a sniper rifle and an AT4 launcher, player x becomes rambo and goes out on his own, other players follow the same aproach..

You have freedom but you loose:
Realism, in a real squad there are no rocket launcher equiped sniper pilots (let alone 9 of them).
Realism, player doesnt feel the need to depend on other players.
Teamplay, copy the line above here...

Without teamplay and some level of realism you might just go and play SP...

My current aproach is to create a situation where you will need a pilot to fly you to your mission area.
Your survivability will increase if you stick with your squad/fireteam.
Casualties are punished individualy and at side level (a high number might actually fail the whole thing).

Etc, etc ;).


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#7 Posted at 2008-02-07 07:54        
     
I did understand what you ment :) But I made a comparason to another game which you can have both. Maybe it was me using a bad example. But I still vote Freedom.


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#8 Posted at 2008-02-11 14:42        
     
Freedom and Realism together make a fantastic game, I tend to like Coop Games then any other type, which means theres got to be lots of room, and some decent realism:satisfied


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#9 Posted at 2008-02-16 03:26        
     
Realism all the way, you have no freedom in war so you shouldn't ingame either.


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#10 Posted at 2008-02-16 12:53        
     
Back from the dead just to say that I agree 100% with Fox and Big


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#11 Posted at 2008-02-16 16:10        
     
muki : Back from the dead just to say that I agree 100% with Fox and Big
Oh... welcome back amongst the living then :con.
Thanks to everyone that participated so far :yes.


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#12 Posted at 2008-02-16 17:10        
     
At USEC we too have had this discussion and we decided that what we are actually striving for is "immersion".

With freedom being every other game and realism being actually in the Armed Forces, immersion is the gray area in between that allows you to feel the adrenaline while it remains fun (ie. being shot at in real life is not considered fun by most people).

There are a few things you can implement into your missions and, to a certain extent, your servers if you load the right missions up:


    1 Correct communications for all players mandatory - or boot.
    2 Correct load-outs for your character and ensure job spec is followed - or again, boot.
    3 Identify a chain of command and follow it.
    4 Correct use of tactics, including squad formations.

In addition to the above, I'd say the single most important reason why people don't play correctly is to show off or to look good. For example, the most played map without question, is Evolution, which heavily relies on the players score to open up vehicles and weaponry. A great start as it is a great map - if played correctly. But people rushing to gain rank is commonplace and the main reason it goes to ratshit.

So I'd say that a scoreboard is the problem. Bu all means, a negative score should not be kept, but I believe that is the single biggest reason for non-realistic servers. So switch off Evo, turn on revive scripts and stick together doing your job correctly! And grab a beer, as at the end of the day it is still a game and we're here for fun, eh? ;)


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#13 Posted at 2008-02-16 19:37        
     
^^
Good post tutmeister :yes.
I think "immersion" and "realism" go side by side, i dont find it immersive at all to play for points, rank and unlocking stuff, Evolution can be fun but its far from delivering a great coop experience.
The concept of Evolution is: "Evolution by natural selection", this makes it a more individual experience with very little cooperation betwean players.

What im looking for is wrapping things up so that cooperation becomes essential in order to achieve the objectives and avoid casualties, or else...


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#14 Posted at 2008-02-17 00:28        
     
@Heatseeker, I think the revive script is the single biggest "teamplay enforcement tool" out there. Having people with one life only is obviously more realistic, but to deliver immersion there is some good adrenaline in being shot and unconscious waiting for your buddies to come and revive you amidst the chaos of combat. The best mission I have played for that is "Black Sword".


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#15 Posted at 2008-02-17 13:12        
     
tutmeister : @Heatseeker, I think the revive script is the single biggest "teamplay enforcement tool" out there.


I totally agree with this. No respawn in most cases wont lead you to victory if your playing with a limitted ammount of players but want to play the bigger missions.
For those the revive is perfect IMHO.

Run and gunners wont be revived cause they are to far out and leave cause they have to wait, so it works perfectly for good team play :)

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