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#1 Posted at 2008-05-14 23:38        
     
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i20r74nbJhE

a brief demonstration of an AI bug in Armed Assault where the enemy soldiers can detect your presence when within a certain range without actually looking at you. This means that even if i hide behind a wall and the have no line of sight they will still be able to detect me thus reducing any stealth in the game.

It should be noted that i have playtested this somewhat and found that Vehicles will not detect you but enemy infantry always will no matter what difficuilty level is set. Is there a mod that would fix this so that the enemy AI would walk straight past or is it unmoddable and something that i would have to live with if i continue to play Armed Assault

any comments would be appreciated

This post was edited by Foxhound (2008-05-15 16:13, ago)


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#2 Posted at 2008-05-14 23:48        
     
Thats odd. I can sneak up behind enemies pretty close. At least until they hear me by ear. If i keep behind houses - they dont notice me. And together with Durgs vegetation fix i can sneak up right behind a tank and place a satchel - move back and blow it to bits.

They notice you if your close and run/walk around, even if behind a wall - as they can hear you, and get aware of that something is around them. They havent identifyed you as enemy though until they come running behind the wall and see you.

This is how it works on my computer and i dont use any AI-DONT-SEE-ME-MOD :)

Only thing i use that affects the AI atm is this:
VFAI (AI a bit smarter, throwing smoke - longer fire fights due to this)
Durgs Vegetation Fix (bushes/some trees hides you - enemies dont see you as long as you stay behind/inside them)


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#3 Posted at 2008-05-15 08:44        
     
Vehicles are different, they seem to have a different level of awareness, tanks and BRDMS just rolled by but its more the ability to evade infantry that im concerned with. I could be wrong however, i didnt test it extensively. If you could test it yourself and just stand at a street corner and let an infantry patrol pass by very closely as i showed in my video and dont shoot them, if you could post a video showing this it would be even betterbut either way it would kill this game for me if i couldnt evade them if i chose to

i will check out that mod however, can you post a link to it?


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#4 Posted at 2008-05-15 09:06        
     
Here it's:

-Vegetation Fix by durg78


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#5 Posted at 2008-05-15 11:07        
     
here is another video that is perhaps clearer, the patrol walks past but then spots the soldier who is hiding on the stairs on a building on the left hand side of the street (the video could be clearer unfortunately). Is it really possible to set a proper ambush in armed assault?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyXRii0L62M

thanks for the mod, i will look at it, i doubt i would fix this problem though.


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#6 Posted at 2008-05-15 11:47        
     
Im not at home atm but will watch. It depends a bit if they saw you a bit earlier going up to the stairs maybe?

With durgs veg fix you can sneak up to and let enemies pass 1 meter from you and they wont pay attention to you - as long as you are still. They can hear you in arma as i said.


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#7 Posted at 2008-05-15 12:03        
     
Dev is talking about a vegatation fix. This means the default BI bushes are changed to block the AI from seeing you. It wont help when you are on a stairs or around a corner.


But, I completely see your problem. I have the same issues with Arma trying to ambush or position myself for an attack.
I have even been killed many times after I engaged a single unit. Killed him. Ran hundred meter to hide behind or in a building (the AI could not see where I move to cause that was blocked by buildings) only to find myself killed one minute later by a well placed nade or infantry unit with a dog's nose who miraculasly found my hiding spot.

Annoying but it teached me to not try and hide :p

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#8 Posted at 2008-05-15 12:33        
     
Dev : Im not at home atm but will watch. It depends a bit if they saw you a bit earlier going up to the stairs maybe?

With durgs veg fix you can sneak up to and let enemies pass 1 meter from you and they wont pay attention to you - as long as you are still. They can hear you in arma as i said.

no we werent spotted, they are in a relaxed posture and out of the blue it appears they see you

Foxhound : Annoying but it teached me to not try and hide :p
that is unfortunate, i dont want to perform learned behaviours that are caused by flaws in the game, running and hiding is a perfectly reasonable option and this should be represented in the game


EDIT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GisH3FUDxk

added is another video from the 1.12 patched version (previously was the demo so i could play on a lan with someone who didnt have the full version). Same problem, i do notice that the soldier does turn his head somewhat but theres no way i should be spotted, its unrealistic, its definetly not a proximity issue but the AI seems to have hawk like vision and eyes in the back of its head, quite a combination


[add on]


Dev : Im not at home atm but will watch. It depends a bit if they saw you a bit earlier going up to the stairs maybe?

With durgs veg fix you can sneak up to and let enemies pass 1 meter from you and they wont pay attention to you - as long as you are still. They can hear you in arma as i said.

but does the bush also prevent the AI from firing at you when you use a bush as cover even if it should know you are there?

in other words i dont want the bush to behave like a rock, i want the bush to behave like a bush


[mod edit]
Please do not double post, use the edit button instead if you need to post more.

This post was edited by Foxhound (2008-05-15 16:07, ago)


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#9 Posted at 2008-05-15 16:11        
     
predator887 : but does the bush also prevent the AI from firing at you when you use a bush as cover even if it should know you are there?

in other words i dont want the bush to behave like a rock, i want the bush to behave like a bush


Yes, with durg's vegetation fix a bush will act like a bush.
If you are laying behind it the enemy can not see you. But they can still hear you. If they (for whatever reason) detect you they will engage you.
They cant see you so they have no aim at you, but that wont stop them from shooting through it to hopefully hit you.
If you check the link there (vegetation fix) I think there is also a video on that page showing it.

Additionally, you might want to have a look at this:
DMHide v0.3



BTW
I changed topic title.

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#10 Posted at 2008-05-15 16:29        
     
Foxhound : [quote]predator887 :
but does the bush also prevent the AI from firing at you when you use a bush as cover even if it should know you are there?

in other words i dont want the bush to behave like a rock, i want the bush to behave like a bush


Yes, with durg's vegetation fix a bush will act like a bush.
If you are laying behind it the enemy can not see you. But they can still hear you. If they (for whatever reason) detect you they will engage you.
They cant see you so they have no aim at you, but that wont stop them from shooting through it to hopefully hit you.
If you check the link there (vegetation fix) I think there is also a video on that page showing it.

Additionally, you might want to have a look at this:
DMHide v0.3



BTW
I changed topic title.
[/quote]

thanks, i still hope that someone can answer the original question as the vegetation fix is not necessarily going to solve it


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#11 Posted at 2008-05-16 16:12        
     
i had a look in the editor, i set AI on the same patrol but reduced their alertness, it seemed to work

im not sure what the alertnes was of the guys from before, they loked pretty relaxed, obviously not


EDIT -

i tried it again this time with a 3 man patrol, for some reaosn that changes things and again they turn around and see me, no idea why

This post was edited by predator887 (2008-05-16 16:28, ago)


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#12 Posted at 2008-05-17 00:40        
     
This was a huge problem in versions up to 1.09 for me. I was so happy that i could for example blow satchels while hiding a bit up a hill and the enemy didnt know where i was. In previous versions (before 1.09) i was hiding 100 meters up a hill behind a dip (not a chance for the AI to see me) and still they started run up to my location. By that time everyone called the AI in arma for super enemies. That was taken care of, at least it got much better even though enemies can still be somewhat intuitive. It has also been stated that the AI in arma is not "dumb" when it comes to understand where you went (if they saw you run away) or where you might be hiding after blowing something up remotelly. They will try and search places where you actually can hide such as around buildings or bushes etc instead of just running along in a open plain.

This still doesnt touch the OPs question but.... darn it, let me go into arma now and test what the problem is. To me with durgs (i mention it all the time because it has improved sneaking for me) i can sneak up VERY close to ememies without them seeing me or "feeling" me. I can even in the editor start in a bush very close to the enemies and they dont get alerted - without touching the AI settings. If you start a mission on top of some stairs - dont you need to lay down then immediatelly at start? That will make them see you ofcourse when you go down.

Ok tested. I start in rhamadi and i place my soldier JUST outside the village - on the street into rhamadi village. I have enemies placed out everywhere but not so they see me on start. I walk up to the first one behind a wall... what do you know - he doesnt know im there! I shoot him in the back of his head like a sitting duck. If i stay there for a while without shooting, and as the AI look around left and right, he WILL eventually turn around and engage me. So i dont have your problem, at least not on start. And i have been playing MP with friends where we move from house to house while enemies are around without them noticing us.

Let me do more tests and i get back to you.


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#13 Posted at 2008-05-17 02:16        
     
i really do appreciate the fact that your willing to spend your time looking into this issue, thanks. i have created a new video that hopefully illustrates it a little more clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjEPzVPLH4g

the first thing id like to point out is that i can sneak up on enemy soldiers from behind, i have tested this and found no problems. I can even set one individual soldier on a patrol and he will walk right past me as i would expect him too if it were real life, the problem lies when more than 1 soldier is part of the patrol, for some unknown reason i can now be spotted even though im in the same position that i was safe in when it was just a 1 man patrol. I could try this 100 times and the results would be the same, with 1 man i never get spotted, with 3 men i always get spotted, why is this?

This post was edited by predator887 (2008-05-17 02:21, ago)


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#14 Posted at 2008-05-17 05:03        
     
First off mate, are you playing the full ArmA or the demo? Think i read that and that you said someone else tested in in 1.12 with same result. Sorry if im wrong, going off to work and dont have time reading it all.

However, i post a pic here for you showing that i indeed can sneak up on and also start close to a group of enemies (think they are 7 or 9) and i havent touched the AI settings. I tested starting further away sneaking up on them (hence SNEAKING crouched and slowly move forward as they can hear). Also started right there where you see in the picture. No alert at all.

ArmA 1.12b


So if you do play ArmA full game, i dont really know why you cant do what i can. As mentioned, i have VFAI mod running and i dont know if that helps? If it is the VFAI, then i suggest you run that mod too. Will test with VFAI disabled when i come back.

Regards
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#15 Posted at 2008-05-17 08:33        
     
i ran it in both the demo and v1.12 same result.

i could probably sneak up on those guys in the picture you posted, the problem is the patrol in the video i posted, why is it that as a one man patrol i go unnoticed yet as a 3 man patrol i am spotted

try to repeat exactly what i did in the video if you can and perhaps you will see, find a similar hiding spot (corner of a building and peak out for example) and set a 1 man patrol to walk past you from left to right. Then repeat it for a 3 man patrol, and see the results (do it in first person ;))