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#166 Posted at 2012-09-14 20:01        
     
# Tony Grunt :

Translation: "I don't want to come to Greece because I like breaking its laws regarding National Security and you want to jail me. Also I own you with my tourist money."

Since you don't understand here is a different translation: Not going Greece because 12 plane spotters who took photos of airplanes were arrested.


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#167 Posted at 2012-09-14 20:09        
     
That's your right, as is the duty of Greek officials to prosecute people caught photographing military installations.
It's the law, it's not going to change. And if you want to be an informed tourist, read the advisory regarding Greece from your country. Or don't they know any better too?


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#168 Posted at 2012-09-14 20:22        
     
Some of you still do not get it.

Earlier people suggested creating a petition (in whatever form), we thought it was best to first ask BI how they feel about such a thing.
At first it was stopped but BI came back to me asking what kind of petition we would like to run and how. It does not make sense to reply than........"how would you want it BI?"
They want to know what we are thinking of so it can be reviewed, if it is ok with them (so I will assume they run it through people who know wether it could be bad or not) we could start such.

I personally have no interest to contact any other community website about anything to start anything. However, anyone here is free to take the setting up and organizing of the petition upon himself, Armaholic gladly provides a platform to use so it gets spreaded and known.
The person who is responsible for it can than contact/inform and talk with other community websites.


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#169 Posted at 2012-09-14 20:32        
     
http://www.novinky.cz/zahranicni/evropa/278778-cesi-zadrzeni-v-recku-mohou-na-rozuzleni-cekat-cely-pristi-rok.html

This article, claim, that based on a citation of unnamed police officer by ATF agency. It can take 9 to 18 month before this case will get to a court.

Also in the article it is cited, that both the investigator and procurator had stated, that the arrested men have fullfilled the "Actus reus*" of the crime. The arrested men's advocate have 5 days to appeal with valid arguments, that could disprove the acusation.

The rest of the article is a recapitulation of previous information.

*I dont know if it is the correct translation form the term "skutková podstata trestního činu"


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#170 Posted at 2012-09-14 20:38        
     
Although this may appear quite foolish and silly for us the two guys are in serious shit right now and what I would not want to see is them going down to hell because some rediculous thing some internet community did.
Exactly that's why we're told by Marek to not do anything at the moment but wait for their instructions/suggestions.

And I believe the family/families should actually organize this petition themselves for it to be legit. I seriously doubt any legal entity would regocnise Facbeook/forum petitions as anything but a nuisance.
That's a good point of course, but maybe their families have no ties to the community at all. And maybe they have enough problems already and don't want to deal with some 'gaming kids'.

Translation: "I don't want to come to Greece because I like breaking its laws regarding National Security and you want to jail me. Also I own you with my tourist money."
Translate as you like but god please stop repeating that "National Security" mantra over and over again. Please, at least you guys use common sense when your government is unable to.
The Turkeys have these pictures long time if they really want them. If some Czech amateurs can take them, the Turkish Army / Intelligence can take them 10 times. And the Czech Republic surely will not invade Greece. Actually I doubt that even Turkey will invade Greece and then have your economical crisis to deal with.
As for the tourist argument, tell me. Does Greece needs the tourists, or Tourists needs Greece? I don't think the latter is the case, especially in these troubled days.
Like said, think about all this instead being brainwashed by your government all day long making you being scared of evil Turks every day. ;-)

# Derk Yall : http://www.novinky.cz/zahranicni/evropa/278778-cesi-zadrzeni-v-recku-mohou-na-rozuzleni-cekat-cely-pristi-rok.html

This article, claim, that based on a citation of unnamed police officer by ATF agency. It can take 9 to 18 month before this case will get to a court.
At least that Greece and German courts have in common. They work slower than a snail climbs a hill. :-)


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#171 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:13        
     
# W0lle : Translate as you like but god please stop repeating that "National Security" mantra over and over again. Please, at least you guys use common sense when your government is unable to.
The Turkeys have these pictures long time if they really want them. If some Czech amateurs can take them, the Turkish Army / Intelligence can take them 10 times. And the Czech Republic surely will not invade Greece. Actually I doubt that even Turkey will invade Greece and then have your economical crisis to deal with.
As for the tourist argument, tell me. Does Greece needs the tourists, or Tourists needs Greece? I don't think the latter is the case, especially in these troubled days.
Like said, think about all this instead being brainwashed by your government all day long making you being scared of evil Turks every day. ;-)

So, you are saying if you think a law isn't valid then it shouldn't apply to you? That's a novel approach but I think most judges won't accept it.
You are thinking about the Turks more than I do, I believe it's the first time I mentioned them. I have no problem with Turkey or Turks because I never had any contact with them. You seem more brainwashed than me, I am just saying there is a law in Greece and if you break it, you get prosecuted. If I photograph any military installation and get arrested I will face the same charges, that's why I avoid it. Call me brainwashed but I don't like jail.
And regarding the tourist money, my opinion is if you try to force them to disregard future offences (you think law isn't valid) they might just throw the book on them to make their point.


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#172 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:27        
     
Well guys we have to do something
I don´t know how this stuff is done in Greece but I imagine that they have to be brought in front of a judge after a few days. If the judge can be convinced that they are not spy´s they might be set free.
A Petition might be a good start.


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#173 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:28        
     
OK. How about this? Have there been any other notable arrests in Greece recently. Tourists, students from other countries. Anything that could help validate an overreaction on Greece's part?
For example, I found this from 2010 and I by no means consider it overreaction, but it does appear to have been a misunderstanding of sorts between a couple of American tourists who did something they believed was legal or legitimate only to find out later that wasn't entirely the case. On the plus side, they fared pretty well considering the circumstances.
http://gogreece.about.com/b/2010/09/17/american-tourists-arrested-with-human-skulls-in-athens.htm

Here is another incident involving a pair of Brits. (Sorry, I'm laughing as I type this)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/5379849/Britons-arrested-in-Greece-for-dressing-as-naughty-nuns.html

This one is a little interesting because it doesn't state that any laws were broken, but that Greek police were "fed up" with certain behaviors.
http://matadornetwork.com/bnt/10-extreme-cases-of-travelers-imprisoned-abroad/
8. Tourist Gone Wild
2003 – A female holidaymaker was arrested in the Greek town of Faliraki for indecent exposure (baring her breasts in a resort competition) by police fed up with an epidemic of loutish behaviour by tourists. In the end, she paid a fine to avoid an 8 month prison sentence.

Added 2 minutes later:

# Tonci87 : Well guys we have to do something
I don´t know how this stuff is done in Greece but I imagine that they have to be brought in front of a judge after a few days. If the judge can be convinced that they are not spy´s they might be set free.
A Petition might be a good start.

Perhaps petitioning the court or judge directly is a possible option.


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#174 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:31        
     
Seems like greek police likes to stop people having fun^^


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#175 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:39        
     
# Foxhound : Some of you still do not get it.

Earlier people suggested creating a petition (in whatever form), we thought it was best to first ask BI how they feel about such a thing.
At first it was stopped but BI came back to me asking what kind of petition we would like to run and how. It does not make sense to reply than........"how would you want it BI?"
They want to know what we are thinking of so it can be reviewed, if it is ok with them (so I will assume they run it through people who know wether it could be bad or not) we could start such.

I personally have no interest to contact any other community website about anything to start anything. However, anyone here is free to take the setting up and organizing of the petition upon himself, Armaholic gladly provides a platform to use so it gets spreaded and known.
The person who is responsible for it can than contact/inform and talk with other community websites.
I had a very lenghty post written prior to reading this but somehow this gives me the impression Armaholic is afraid to be the backbone to a petition as in "it wasn't us, we ´just provided the backend". If I'm wrong, kick me in the nuts.. :P

Anyway, how I read what Fox says BIS said is that BIS is looking for a clean and simple tecnical advice, as in how in a matter of fact any petition would be held. I find it rather odd that Armaholic, or Fox wouldn't be personally interested.
I myself have been here (in the community) pretty much since the beginning (and yes, to some of you "noobs" this is way waayy way before Armaholic even existed :P ) and I find myself very involved even though BIS doesn't have an idea.

I'm not talking in behalf of OFPEC, but in my opinnion we as a community should rise up as one and help these guys, but if BIS really don't know what a community petition could do they're in trouble.. :(

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#176 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:40        
     
This one is eye opening also.
http://humanrightswarrior.com/2012/09/07/the-other-greek-crisis-xenophobia-and-migrant-detention/
Human Rights Warrior:
The brand-new Amygdaleza migrant detention center was opened in April in western Athens, shortly before the election. There are plans to build many more detention camps – and quickly. Greek police reported this week that they have arrested thousands and temporarily detained more than 17,000 migrants, mostly from Asia and Africa, since August 4, 2012.


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#177 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:43        
     
Alcohol fuels rise in British arrests abroad
Seems like most of the countries want to stop people having fun.
Aren't we heading too political?


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#178 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:44        
     
Not so much news as it is an opinion, but it gives an idea of what these two guys are up against.
http://www.dlwaldron.com/N17.html

Added 3 minutes later:

# Tony Grunt : Alcohol fuels rise in British arrests abroad
Seems like most of the countries want to stop people having fun.
Aren't we heading too political?

No and too show that my intentions are based on hypocrasy, here is an incident that happened here, in the US of A,
http://www.murthalawfirm.com/mother-3-arrested-pictures-tourist-attraction-airport


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#179 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:48        
     
# Tony Grunt : So, you are saying if you think a law isn't valid then it shouldn't apply to you?
No that I never said, actually if you read a post I made before then you would realize that I said that if they have broken a law and knew about it, they deserve punishment

If they have broken a law but didn't knew about it, then it would be enough to confiscate the equipment, expel them from Greece and charge them with some Euros penalty. But charging them for espionage is just idiotic.

And regarding the tourist money, my opinion is if you try to force them to disregard future offences (you think law isn't valid) they might just throw the book on them to make their point.
All I say is:

1) With some common sense used, even the slowest attorney or judge should realize that these 2 guys are not spies.
2) If the Greece wouldn't treat anyone as possible spy or enemy, these 2 guys could be long time home
3) I (and not only I) will avoid Greece if taking photos of a road going to a base is a major crime and can get me in jail for months and years to come.

Tell me: If I arrive at Lemnos airport on my vacation and take some photos of, say the plane I arrived with, and in the background is one of your F-16s - am I still treated as a visiting guest or will I be arrested as a possible spy? And don't come with the law now, I don't know neither the German nor the Greece law. And I doubt that on arrival someone gives me the Greek law to read nor tells me that I must not take photos of military equipment, be it on purpose or by accident.
Sorry but after this incident and the planespotter one I learnt about, I will never ever set my feet on Greece ground. I hate jails as much as you do.


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#180 Posted at 2012-09-14 21:50        
     
# h- : I had a very lenghty post written prior to reading this but somehow this gives me the impression Armaholic is afraid to be the backbone to a petition as in "it wasn't us, we ´just provided the backend". If I'm wrong, kick me in the nuts.. :P

Anyway, how I read what Fox says BIS said is that BIS is looking for a clean and simple tecnical advice, as in how in a matter of fact any petition would be held. I find it rather odd that Armaholic, or Fox wouldn't be personally interested.
I myself have been here (in the community) pretty much since the beginning (and yes, to some of you "noobs" this is way waayy way before Armaholic even existed :P ) and I find myself very involved even though BIS doesn't have an idea.

I'm not talking in behalf of OFPEC, but in my opinnion we as a community should rise up as one and help these guys, but if BIS really don't know what a community petition could do they're in trouble.. :(
My interpretation is that BI wants well thought ideas that will be presented and greenlighted by a lawyer or a Czech Goverment official, so more good is done than harm.





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