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#241 Posted at 2012-09-18 02:36        
     
I had a deputy sheriff here in Orlando tell me that photographing airliners is illegal since 9/11.

Since he was a Central Florida deputy I had to step at least 100 feet away before laughing at him. Don't wanna get tazed for pissing off a cop.


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#242 Posted at 2012-09-18 04:49        
     
# Patterson[75thR] : I had a deputy sheriff here in Orlando tell me that photographing airliners is illegal since 9/11.

Since he was a Central Florida deputy I had to step at least 100 feet away before laughing at him. Don't wanna get tazed for pissing off a cop.

I think that's a case of an officer wanting to look like he knows what hes talking about cuz I've personally never heard such a law. In fact 2 1/2 years ago I even attended a joint DHS/FEMA symposium and nothing like that was ever said and I don't see anything online about it. In fact, I Googled "photographing airliners is illegal since 9/11" and the very first hit was actually your post. :-D


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#243 Posted at 2012-09-18 07:07        
     
# Babylonjoke : Do you have also proof about what kinda of photos they taked? I don't think so, It's better if we all shut up about that.
What I said is based on the official police announcement,you can read it [url=http://www.astynomia.gr/index.php?option=ozo_content&lang='..'&perform=view&id=19817&Itemid=968&lang=]here[/url].It says "...they had recorded with the use of digital equipment,audio-visual material from military sites in the area of Limnos..." . I do think it's a misunderstanding,maybe the took pics that they shouldn't.So the issue here isn't if they did it on purpose or not,we all believe they didn't,the issue is they did according to the official police statement.

What does it mean, I'm not able to go where I want? I AM FREE TO GO WHERE I WANT EXCEPT INTO RESTRICTED ZONES.
There's who prefer go to the beach, who prefer to go into the bunkers, who prefer visit other stuffs, no one can complain that.
Yeah true but if you want to go near military bases and start taking pics then don't find it weird if people think you are suspicious...



What he sed as really nothing to do with the racism.
I found all your(and other people who joined there from greece in these days) patriotism so ridicoulous. You are defending a law,not your people,not your land, but a law, which puted 2 guy with a family into a jail, risking 20 years.
Why?
When you want to boycott a whole country because the plice did its job then yes there's a problem...Do you know what law is?Of course I'm defending the law,I'm thankful of the education I got,Plato said "Law helps people be in the right way like lines help kids to learn writing".Law is one of the pillars of democracy,one of the pillars of consistent society.I don't want them to go to jail,since it's a misunderstanding I want a good ending,but doesn't mean we shouldn't respect the law.Unless you support anarchy...


"These included a short video as they drove through the main road passing around the international airport, where in one short part of the video off in the distance some hangars and other buildings of the complex can be seen"
HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THAT.
As I said it's probably a misunderstanding,they though they could record it,but according to law I guess they shouldn't

Wake up buddy. We are just sad and pissed off, that's not racism.
Sometimes emotions blur judgement....


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#244 Posted at 2012-09-18 08:46        
     
# Patterson[75thR] : I had a deputy sheriff here in Orlando tell me that photographing airliners is illegal since 9/11.

Since he was a Central Florida deputy I had to step at least 100 feet away before laughing at him. Don't wanna get tazed for pissing off a cop.
As an officer myself, I can personally attest to how totally inept a good 70% of officers in uniform are. Most states let their Academy students float through while learning no law outside of traffic laws and barely learning to shoot their weapon. Florida and Ohio are two of the worst.

Added 7 minutes later:

Text removed .....
No politics!


Added 14 minutes later:

# Hakk : When you want to boycott a whole country because the plice did its job then yes there's a problem...Do you know what law is?Of course I'm defending the law,I'm thankful of the education I got,Plato said "Law helps people be in the right way like lines help kids to learn writing".Law is one of the pillars of democracy,one of the pillars of consistent society.I don't want them to go to jail,since it's a misunderstanding I want a good ending,but doesn't mean we shouldn't respect the law.Unless you support anarchy...

Hmm, quoting plato? Lets examine what you said first to make sure it even makes sense, before we bring philosophy into it.

By law, they must have broken a law to be arrested and charged with breaking the law. They were charged with espionage. This means that the Greek Authorities had evidence that these two individuals were gathering data for their enemies.

But according to this: http://www.bistudio.com/english/home/news/company/330-update-lemnos-arrests
"These included a short video as they drove through the main road passing around the international airport, where in one short part of the video off in the distance some hangars and other buildings of the complex can be seen."
we now know the offending image was in fact of the scenery and not of the military installations individually.

I still haven't seen anyone quote the law that prohibits taking pictures of anything military from publicly accessible areas. It's neither online, nor is it's contents common knowledge, which means that realistically it isn't publicly available if it is in fact law. (Go ask Plato if making a law, not telling people what's in the law, and then arresting people for said law is philosophically sound.)

So you're saying that based on the information we now have, that the Greek authorities have evidence that they are guilty of espionage? Espionage is their only charge after several days. I'm not keen on how things work in Greece, but in the rest of the world, charges and evidence have to be laid out very quickly otherwise the detainees are released. So the only charge they've laid down is the one that we have to assume that they intend to prosecute.

"I don't want them to go to jail,since it's a misunderstanding I want a good ending,"

I can assume from this that you doubt their guilt as well. So tell me this, with dwindling evidence of a crime, overzealous actions (taking two innocent men prisoner?), and past history involving the Greek Authorities abusing human rights and even Greek law altogether, how is it you can continue to support their actions?

Like I said before, this isn't justice. In fact, it's a total miscarriage of justice. Plato is spinning in his grave right about now.

Socrates himself stated that by being/living in Greece at the time of his death, that by doing so without attempts to change the law, he was in-fact bound by the law. At that point, Athens promptly executed him for not much more than being a clever dick about things.

I don't have any chance of changing Greek law (or even knowing it for that matter), and I have no interest in sacrificing my freedom just to be there. Text removed

This post was edited by Foxhound (2012-09-18 16:26, ago)


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#245 Posted at 2012-09-18 08:59        
     
This is the last time I ask.

Leave politics, and boycotting out of this thread. Also do not derail the thread directing it towards the situation with the Turks, this goes for both sides.
I do not care about the situation in Greece, I care about the BIS staff members kept there and instead of discussing all kind of background things discuss how we can better help to get them out.

The discussion as to why is getting repetative.


From now on any post I do not like (read, does break our forum rules) will simply be deleted completely, even if only a small part breakes those rules.


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#246 Posted at 2012-09-18 09:14        
     
# Hakk : What I said is based on the official police announcement,you can read it [url=http://www.astynomia.gr/index.php?option=ozo_content&lang='..'&perform=view&id=19817&Itemid=968&lang=]here[/url].It says "...they had recorded with the use of digital equipment,audio-visual material from military sites in the area of Limnos..." . I do think it's a misunderstanding,maybe the took pics that they shouldn't.So the issue here isn't if they did it on purpose or not,we all believe they didn't,the issue is they did according to the official police statement.

I read the arcticle in english and I must say, it looks very weird to me... They were arrested one day after they took the problematic shots. They were arrested by Police officers, not by Military guys. In my opinion this difinitely means, they weren't caught "in the act" (as I saw some messages suggesting that) and they weren't caught in the restricted military area (there they would be caught by military). It sounds to me more like "go for that guys, maybe there will be something we can arrest them for". The arcticle is vague about whay they really took photos of.

I'm from Czech Republic and one of the guys is my close friend, but I have no more info than it is to be found on the web.

I can somewhat understand they were arrested, but I can't really understand they aren't on their way home yet... Push this to the court seems absurd to me. More because of the fact that judges went on the strike. Which should be at least for 2 weeks as I read somewhere. I get you are angry at your politics, but I think that complicate lifes of two foreign guys because of that is pretty f**ked up.

Edit add:
As for how we can help, there is online petition running for czech citizens (I guess to show support to our Minister of foreing affairs). As for international support there is the page that is on the banner here. I found this arcticle on the facebook from Rocket that I find interesting, with some ideas that might be really useful. Rocket's post

This post was edited by Mr.Badger (2012-09-18 09:20, ago)


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#247 Posted at 2012-09-18 11:17        
     
Guys, how much publicity would you like for that Petition of yours?
I´m thinking about contacting
http://memebase.cheezburger.com/videogames
They may put it on their page. But I first want to make sure that this is OK with everyone.
I could contact a few Game magazines in germany as well.


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#248 Posted at 2012-09-18 12:09        
     
# Tonci87 : Guys, how much publicity would you like for that Petition of yours?

BI have sent out a public email to all their media contacts as well regarding the petition :-)

I´m thinking about contacting
http://memebase.cheezburger.com/videogames
They may put it on their page. But I first want to make sure that this is OK with everyone.
I could contact a few Game magazines in germany as well.

I can not imagine anyone would mind you to spread the news and keep in mind the petition is not my initiative, its Sickboy's baby :-)


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#249 Posted at 2012-09-18 12:29        
     
I stumbled upon this in one of our online news - interview with their lawyer. I'll translate it for you (ps: if you find any grammar error, let me know via pm, it has been a while since I took an english class :) )

Are your clients tourists or was their visint on the island purely work related? According to the media, they told the investigators that they were collecting material for ArmA 3 computer game on Lemnos. Then their employer Bohemia Interactive posted a press release that the two men weren't send there on business.
I have the file in front of me and believe me, both arrested testified from the beginning that they are in Greece on vacation. They stated, that they knew Lemnos due to their work, and because of that they chose it as their holyday destination. They never said to the investigators that they are there on business. Everybody tries to connect their visit on the island with the ArmA game. That however isn't true. They didn't come there to take photos of the environment for the game. They use modern technology for that, which has better quality. For the game were used snapshots from Google Earth, satelites and other publicly accessible resources.
So why did they take photos of the objects that are prohibited to be shot?
My clients were just viewing the island, on their camera there is approximately 150 common tourist photos. Than there is one video, from which the investigators took 14 snapshots. There can be seen military air field. But that video was shot from the car while driving.
Did they know they are shooting restricted object?
There can be seen one sign on the video, informing that this object can't be photographed. The thing is, that as they were driving, they didn't notice the first sign. At the moment they saw the second sign, they stopped filming.
Despite of this they were charged of espionage?
Yes, according to the investigators, they were in possession of the material, that can endanger the national security of Greece. As I already said, the material in question is only that one short video. Also they filmed object, that is very easily visible and accessible to the public. Air field and the military buildings are near to the public communications. Anybody passing by can see what's going on inside the base. Charge of espionage means, that someone has to try to collect and get away secret information out of the country. My clients weren't hiding anywhere, nor they tried to infiltrate restricted areas. Their photos also doesn't contain any secret information. It is clear, that their intention wasn't spying, it was just a mistake. So they shouldn't be charged of espionage, but only of taking photos of military objects without permision, which is much less serious charge.
Does the Greek prosecution have enough evidence to bring the arrested to the trial?
By the Greek law, it is not neccessary to collect evidence during the investigation, for the prosecution only hint of a crime that the subject might commit is enough. Only at the trial there has to be evidence presented. For the court could be interesting only that 14 shots captured from the video.
Why is the case being judged so seriously? Are the Greeks so sensitive about their military objects?
Lemnos is a strategic island, Turkey is close from there, so there are a lot of soldiers guarding the objects. Another thing is that there was already a dispute about the ArmA game last year, which raised many critic reactions. Politicians from Lesbos interpelled in the parlament on this topic. Minister of the defence at the moment claimed, that they had surveyed the whole ArmA 3 project and hadn't found anything, that would harm the interests of Greece. He also added, that with the current technology, it is impossible to stop images of the Greek territory being captured. Nevertheless the affair caused that the security service is even more touchy.
Are you in contact with the both arrested? How are they psychologically feeling?
They are in prison, nobody would feel good in their situation, but they try to be strong and have faith in the justice, they belive, that Greece is a lawful state.
What are your next steps as their attorney?
We want to appeal for their release, so they can be investigated while keep their freedom. It may take several days before it is determined. It can go both way. Either prosecutor will say they will stay in prison till the court takes place, or he may set a bail.
How long can it take to close the case?
It can take one week or one year. By Greek law, the trial has to be set at the latest in 18 months, until then they might stay in prison.


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#250 Posted at 2012-09-18 12:53        
     
"Does the Greek prosecution have enough evidence to bring the arrested to the trial?
By the Greek law, it is not neccessary to collect evidence during the investigation, for the prosecution only hint of a crime that the subject might commit is enough."


This is something I came across the other day, and one of the reasons I gave up talking about it till a petition was organized. In Greek law, in their Elements of Crime, they have 'Actus Reus' or a crime taking place, without having 'Mens Rea' or criminal intent. What this means is that if a victimless crime happens by total accident, the accused is guilty no matter what. This is contrary to modern justice and leaves a hole the size of a bus for innocent people to slip through. This means that Greek law doesn't allow for true Due Process (hence the problem the lawyer brought up). That means these guys are pretty much F*cked without political pressure or a great deal of luck. In every sense of the 'greek law', these guys are pretty much are guilty.


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#251 Posted at 2012-09-18 13:58        
     
# deanosbeano : I doubt this was a National incident when it happened , maybe more a Local Incident that blew out of proportion , I`m sure from the Protests about Arma 3 location on this Island they would like some retribution, hopefully this Newspaper column Inches will be enough and all can get back to Virtual Reality ;).

Absolutely. It just sounds like after how others talk about the Island protesting and when I read that, to me it comes across almost as if they're rioting in the streets.

Added 32 minutes later:

# TheCapulet : "Does the Greek prosecution have enough evidence to bring the arrested to the trial?
By the Greek law, it is not neccessary to collect evidence during the investigation, for the prosecution only hint of a crime that the subject might commit is enough."


This is something I came across the other day, and one of the reasons I gave up talking about it till a petition was organized. In Greek law, in their Elements of Crime, they have 'Actus Reus' or a crime taking place, without having 'Mens Rea' or criminal intent. What this means is that if a victimless crime happens by total accident, the accused is guilty no matter what. This is contrary to modern justice and leaves a hole the size of a bus for innocent people to slip through. This means that Greek law doesn't allow for true Due Process (hence the problem the lawyer brought up). That means these guys are pretty much F*cked without political pressure or a great deal of luck. In every sense of the 'greek law', these guys are pretty much are guilty.

That's some serious F***ed up crap there.
Mr.Badger:
They were arrested one day after they took the problematic shots. They were arrested by Police officers, not by Military guys. In my opinion this difinitely means, they weren't caught "in the act"

Maybe it just me, I don't know, but IMHO that changes the dynamic of the situation. Did either guy mention who they were and what they were doing to a civilian who than in turn went to the police? The video that was shot in the car, was it a rental car one of them were driving or was it a taxi cab? If the arrests happened 24hrs later, how did the civilian police become involved in the first place?
The defense should have the right to depose any witness(s) to hear it for themselves.
Or were they caught on a security camera they hadn't seen?
Whatever its is, I just hope that when it comes to finding the above info out that the prosecutor/DA, doesn't cite "Its a National Security Matter So we can't divulge our source at this time." bull$hit.

This post was edited by GenPatton43 (2012-09-18 14:30, ago)


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#252 Posted at 2012-09-18 15:22        
     
The defense has appealed on Monday against the charges. The appeal has, however, been put on hold because the Greek justice system is on strike (I wish that was a joke). The strike will last at minimum 5 days but might stretch to over a month.

According to the Czech ministry of foreign affairs, Ivan and Matin were provided with contacts for local advocates, translators and a way to get in touch with the family upon arrest, which is the standard embassy assistance provided in such cases. An employee of the Czech embassy in Athens has been dispatched to Lesbos to monitor the situation. Considering this is a legal matter of a foreign state this is apparently the extent of what the ministry can do.

Sources (in Czech): http://zpravy.ihned.cz/svet-evropa/c1-57518550-pripad-dvou-cechu-obvinenych-ze-spionaze-v-recku-se-protahne-zacala-stavka-soudcu, http://www.ingamer.cz/kauza-lemnos-vyjadreni-ministerstva-zahranici/


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#253 Posted at 2012-09-18 15:48        
     
# Foxhound : This is the last time I ask.

Leave politics, and boycotting out of this thread. Also do not derail the thread directing it towards the situation with the Turks, this goes for both sides.
I do not care about the situation in Greece, I care about the BIS staff members kept there and instead of discussing all kind of background things discuss how we can better help to get them out.

The discussion as to why is getting repetative.


From now on any post I do not like (read, does break our forum rules) will simply be deleted completely, even if only a small part breakes those rules.


The above includes posts bashing Greece for its laws. Posts + resposes removed.
All european countries have laugable laws within their law system, just cause there is no issue with those atm (publically, since I am sure on a daily basis some people fight rediculous laws) does not mean they do not exist.

Again, discuss the issue with those 2 devs on itself here!
Discuss Greece, its laws, your opinion about its laws and those defending those laws elswhere.


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#254 Posted at 2012-09-18 16:16        
     
# TheCapulet : Hmm, quoting plato? Lets examine what you said first to make sure it even makes sense, before we bring philosophy into it.
By law, they must have broken a law to be arrested and charged with breaking the law. They were charged with espionage. This means that the Greek Authorities had evidence that these two individuals were gathering data for their enemies.
My guess is that they were arrested for espionage because the material they found wasn't allowed.I would be arrested for espionage for the same reason,by espionage I think they mean the gathering of prohibited intel.Since they aren't guilty,the charges will probably "fall" and they will be released.It's like someone is arrested for e.g theft,if he isn't guilty he will be released.

But according to this: http://www.bistudio.com/english/home/news/company/330-update-lemnos-arrests "These included a short video as they drove through the main road passing around the international airport, where in one short part of the video off in the distance some hangars and other buildings of the complex can be seen."
we now know the offending image was in fact of the scenery and not of the military installations individually.
And that's probably the source of the misunderstanding,but let's say I don't know you at all,and you're a foreigner and I catch you filming,how should I know from the start that you were just filming for fun?It takes time for the case to evolve that's what I'm saying.

I still haven't seen anyone quote the law that prohibits taking pictures of anything military from publicly accessible areas. It's neither online, nor is it's contents common knowledge, which means that realistically it isn't publicly available if it is in fact law. (Go ask Plato if making a law, not telling people what's in the law, and then arresting people for said law is philosophically sound.)
There is a law,and as I read there were signs as well.

So you're saying that based on the information we now have, that the Greek authorities have evidence that they are guilty of espionage? Espionage is their only charge after several days. I'm not keen on how things work in Greece, but in the rest of the world, charges and evidence have to be laid out very quickly otherwise the detainees are released. So the only charge they've laid down is the one that we have to assume that they intend to prosecute.
I'm no expert but things aren't so easy.To prove that someone is innocent there is stuff that must be done,it's not a friendly chat,"oh ok you're innocent bye bye see ya".I know it sounds strange and weirld and pointless to some but that's the way legal system works everywhere not just here.

"I don't want them to go to jail,since it's a misunderstanding I want a good ending,"
I can assume from this that you doubt their guilt as well. So tell me this, with dwindling evidence of a crime, overzealous actions (taking two innocent men prisoner?), and past history involving the Greek Authorities abusing human rights and even Greek law altogether, how is it you can continue to support their actions?
Of course I don't want them to jail.I only support the idea that one country must act by the law,whichever that is.And again I'm saying to you don't let emotions blur your judgement,you know they are innocent,the policemen didn't that's why they were arrested,I can't see anything wrong with that.


I don't have any chance of changing Greek law (or even knowing it for that matter), and I have no interest in sacrificing my freedom just to be there. Text removed
Be glad we don't have Echelon :P ....
This is my last post here,it is tiring to repeat things.I really wish good luck to the 2 devs!Hope they'll get released soon!

This post was edited by Foxhound (2012-09-18 16:27, ago)


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#255 Posted at 2012-09-18 17:04        
     
# Hakk : My guess is that they were arrested for espionage because the material they found wasn't allowed.I would be arrested for espionage for the same reason,by espionage I think they mean the gathering of prohibited intel.Since they aren't guilty,the charges will probably "fall" and they will be released.It's like someone is arrested for e.g theft,if he isn't guilty he will be released.

Even if not guilty they will still have spend some time in prison.


And that's probably the source of the misunderstanding,but let's say I don't know you at all,and you're a foreigner and I catch you filming,how should I know from the start that you were just filming for fun?It takes time for the case to evolve that's what I'm saying.

It is upon the greek authorities to prove them guilty, not the other way around, at least that´s how it works in other civilized countrys

There is a law,and as I read there were signs as well.
And they stoped filming as soon as they noticed such a sign.


I'm no expert but things aren't so easy.To prove that someone is innocent there is stuff that must be done,it's not a friendly chat,"oh ok you're innocent bye bye see ya".I know it sounds strange and weirld and pointless to some but that's the way legal system works everywhere not just here.

No it´s not like that "everywhere"





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