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#301 Posted at 2012-09-21 13:17        
     
# PELHAM : The relations between the Greek and the Turkish states have been marked by alternating periods of mutual hostility and reconciliation ever since Greece won its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1821.

Just cause you change the syntax doesn't mean we don't have the same source of information. :P

I understand the history, and the obvious possibility of drastic government changes that seem to occur too often in that area. But if we look at it historically, Greece is the one more likely to fall to a new government leading to aggressions anyways. But either way, I still don't think my point was invalidated. Even with changing governments, self preservation will assure there's no lasting conflict. The aggressor wouldn't last a month in the current political scheme of world policing. It's just too unrealistic of a concept to be able to continue to use it as an argument to justify the Greek authorities' actions.


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#302 Posted at 2012-09-21 13:21        
     
-=Borz=- ::
What would happen if someone tries to take pictures next to an US base, lets say in a peaceful please such as panama, or guantamano bay? or what about if you trespass 1 metre of land withing the Area 51? or what about if you try to take a picture of yourself with an Israeli soldier in an road control in Palestine occupied land...?

Unless the area was defined as a combat zone. At most one may be questioned briefly by MP's.
And up until 5 or so years ago tourists in Nevada had access to a large cliff that overlooked Area 51 from a distance of about 5 miles or so. So, it was common for people to bring high powered optics and watch..........absolutely nothing happen.
In all fairness, the military did end up expanding its outer security ring to include that spot, however, contrary to what some say , it was because for some, that distance wasn't good enough. So, they tried to get closer and in turn set off movement sensors and were busted. After a number of failed attempts, the military said enough was enough and took possession of the ridgeline. Now you can't get within 10 miles or so to the base.


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#303 Posted at 2012-09-21 13:31        
     
# GenPatton43 : So then, you're implying that Greece has,when it comes to passenger flights, something similar to "Terrorist Watch" list, only for software developers? :-D *JOKINGLY*
Not travelled internationally recently? They know who is on the aircraft a week before you board because you have to supply your passport details in advance:
Advance passenger information
For security reasons, the US, most EU States and other countries now require airlines to provide details about their passengers before they travel. This is known as Advance Passenger Information (API). The API requirements vary from country to country. Your airline will let you know what they need from you. Usually, they will ask you to provide these details when you book your flight or check in. Contact your airline if you have any questions about API requirements.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Foreigntravel/AirTravel/DG_176737

Added 2 minutes later:

# TheCapulet : Just cause you change the syntax doesn't mean we don't have the same source of information. :P
Look it up before you say something so naive then and don't make me have to do it for you lol. I just wanted to get it exact as I can't remember dates like that *JOKINGLY*


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#304 Posted at 2012-09-21 13:44        
     
# PELHAM : Not travelled internationally recently? They know who is on the aircraft a week before you board because you have to supply your passport details in advance:
Advance passenger information
For security reasons, the US, most EU States and other countries now require airlines to provide details about their passengers before they travel. This is known as Advance Passenger Information (API). The API requirements vary from country to country. Your airline will let you know what they need from you. Usually, they will ask you to provide these details when you book your flight or check in. Contact your airline if you have any questions about API requirements.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Foreigntravel/AirTravel/DG_176737

Added 2 minutes later:


Look it up before you say something characteristically naive then and don't make me have to do it for you lol. I just wanted to get it exact as I can't remember dates like that *JOKINGLY*

OK, then let me rephrase. So, then the Greek Security Services would then have a dossier on them? Who exactly they were, who they worked for as well as having them listed as a heightened security risk?
OK.
So, from there, undercover agents follow these two and observe them as they are taking photos and a brief video in a moving car.
Than wait 24hrs before arresting them? Am I right or did I miss something? That doesn't support the argument of some who claim that "There is always a threat" from neighboring countries. If that were the case then one would think he "Agents" might have better things to do, like, oh I don't know, catching REAL spies? %)

Added 5 minutes later:

PELHAM:
: Not travelled internationally recently?
No actually, the only times I was overseas, the US Government offered an "all expenses paid" paid vacation to Iraq so we didn't undergo the same level of scrutiny as civilians did. Even when we had to switch aircraft at Ramstein.

This post was edited by GenPatton43 (2012-09-21 13:51, ago)


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#305 Posted at 2012-09-21 14:04        
     
# GenPatton43 : OK, then let me rephrase. So, then the Greek Security Services would then have a dossier on them? Who exactly they were, who they worked for as well as having them listed as a heightened security risk?
ROFL no..... If I was pissed off about the situation and worked there how long do you think it would take me to look through the list of the few hundred daily arrivals and pick out Czech passports, DOB and age and if they are travelling alone?
The two most likely scenarios are
a: they were watched from the beginning with the PP info, or
b: someone noticed the camera in the car and reported it
It's probably B in reality, they would have been tracked down using the tags on the hire car and Bazinga.


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#306 Posted at 2012-09-21 14:12        
     
# PELHAM : Look it up before you say something so naive then and don't make me have to do it for you lol. I just wanted to get it exact as I can't remember dates like that *JOKINGLY*

Lol, you didn't school me on anything hotlips. I pulled the dates from the same exact wiki page you took your entire thought with a clear plagiarizing tone from.


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#307 Posted at 2012-09-21 14:36        
     
# PELHAM : ROFL no..... If I was pissed off about the situation and worked there how long do you think it would take me to look through the list of the few hundred daily arrivals and pick out Czech passports, DOB and age and if they are travelling alone?
The two most likely scenarios are
a: they were watched from the beginning with the PP info, or
b: someone noticed the camera in the car and reported it
It's probably B in reality, they would have been tracked down using the tags on the hire car and Bazinga.

I'm sorry, I just find it incredibly hard to believe that someone notices two Czech citizens booking a flight to a tourist popular area, then passes the info along to a security agent who digs into their background, see's them being employed by a software company and sends up a red flag as if UBL is coming to the island himself. And again, as for the populace being "pissed off" b/c of the game, I also am starting to seriously believe that the residents and any issues they have with the game is being blown way out of per-portion. Its a game and not a video of Muhammad now.


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#308 Posted at 2012-09-21 15:09        
     
# GenPatton43 : I'm sorry, I just find it incredibly hard to believe that someone notices two Czech citizens booking a flight to a tourist popular area, then passes the info along to a security agent who digs into their background, see's them being employed by a software company and sends up a red flag as if UBL is coming to the island himself. And again, as for the populace being "pissed off" b/c of the game, I also am starting to seriously believe that the residents and any issues they have with the game is being blown way out of per-portion. Its a game and not a video of Muhammad now.
That isn't what I said at all, certain people at BIS eg Ivan have their names in the public domain. If you were working in security, didn't like what BIS are doing you would only have to compare a very short list of names with a very short list of daily arrivals at Lemnos, the standard immigration PC systems could do it for you. Security is a very, very boring job which is why most in the field are the way they are (cunts).
As I said that isn't likely, just possible, the car being reported is most likely.
As for the problems caused locally by this don't underestimate the sort of bad feelings this can generate. Misunderstanding the way others see the world, their values and the way they react is what often leads to a mess like this. Greece might be in Europe and the EU but if you travel there and get to know the people you realise they are very different. Insults to family members, religion, nation, town etc are taken far more seriously than they would elsewhere such as the USA. Next time you are in Greece, dress up as a nun to go to a fancy dress party and see what happens to you lol.


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#309 Posted at 2012-09-21 15:29        
     
# PELHAM : Next time you are in Greece, dress up as a nun to go to a fancy dress party and see what happens to you lol.

Sounds like my kind of party. lol.

That aside though, are they realistically even that sensitive to someone toting a camera around? I figure it'd be a pretty common thing on an island who's main attraction is tourism. Maybe that makes way too much sense though. *shrug*


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#310 Posted at 2012-09-21 15:44        
     
I'm sorry, I just find it incredibly hard to believe that someone notices two Czech citizens booking a flight to a tourist popular area, then passes the info along to a security agent who digs into their background, see's them being employed by a software company and sends up a red flag as if UBL is coming to the island himself. And again, as for the populace being "pissed off" b/c of the game, I also am starting to seriously believe that the residents and any issues they have with the game is being blown way out of per-portion. Its a game and not a video of Muhammad now.

I'm really not into conspiracy theories but let us play with this:
1) We know for a fact that the Lemnos mayor has a problem with ARMA 3 since the beginning because his peaceful island full of military is "exactly reproduced" (Lemnos in A3 is 75% of the real one) text removed!.

2) As PELHAM said, if you book a flight to wherever you are registered and the destination country knows that you are arriving long time before you even boarded the plane.

Now the conspiracy starts. I don't know how much power the mayor of Lemnos has, but I presume he's not just a little office clerk.

3) With only 15 mins of work I can make a list of people related to ARMA 3: Ivan Buchta, Martin Pezlar, Marek Spanel ... Easy for everyone following ARMA 3 development.

4) Our mayor passed that list of people to his friends from Secret Service, asking them to warn him (or whoever) when one of these guys travel to Lemnos. Greek secret service added the guys to some "wanted list".

5) Ivan and Martin booked their flights and shortly after Secret Service got the message that the 2 booked a flight and arrive at x on Lemnos. Alarm bell goes on and as asked, they inform our mayor about this.

6) Because of 5) the two got observed since they left the plane. Of course they can't be arrested from the beginning, so they follow and observe them until they seen them taking some photos which could be seen as problematic. As this happened, Secret Service ordered the local police to arrest them before they can get back to the hotel where they can remove the pictures/movies from the equipment.

All fancy conspiracy theory? I dunno, but the Greeks are not idiots either, and know how to do such stuff.

This post was edited by Foxhound (2012-09-23 16:05, ago)


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#311 Posted at 2012-09-21 16:31        
     
Your conspiracy theory is nice :) but I don't think we have to go that deep...
They just arrived at the island, they were looking around and taking a walks with cameras. Someone e.g. from mayor's office saw them and found them suspicious, so he looked up who they were. Ivan from BI? By the end of the week, BOOM, inspection!


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#312 Posted at 2012-09-21 19:37        
     
i want FACTS.

What was the name/location of the hotel where martin and ivan were staying?


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#313 Posted at 2012-09-21 19:55        
     
# jerryhopper : i want FACTS.

What was the name/location of the hotel where martin and ivan were staying?

:-) Are you going to run an investigation?

EDIT: maybe you could ask Czech consul Kovacsova... I guess she could know that, because I can imagine she possibly had to arrange something there, like packing and moving their stuff.


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#314 Posted at 2012-09-21 20:10        
     
# Mr.Badger : :-) Are you going to run an investigation?
With Jerry you never know what comes next. :-D

EDIT: maybe you could ask Czech consul Kovacsova... I guess she could know that, because I can imagine she possibly had to arrange something there, like packing and moving their stuff.
Good point, indeed very good point. *THUMBS UP*


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#315 Posted at 2012-09-21 20:14        
     
# W0lle : I'm really not into conspiracy theories but let us play with this:
1) We know for a fact that the Lemnos mayor has a problem with ARMA 3 since the beginning because his peaceful island full of military is "exactly reproduced" (Lemnos in A3 is 75% of the real one).

2) As PELHAM said, if you book a flight to wherever you are registered and the destination country knows that you are arriving long time before you even boarded the plane.

Now the conspiracy starts. I don't know how much power the mayor of Lemnos has, but I presume he's not just a little office clerk.

3) With only 15 mins of work I can make a list of people related to ARMA 3: Ivan Buchta, Martin Pezlar, Marek Spanel ... Easy for everyone following ARMA 3 development.

4) Our mayor passed that list of people to his friends from Secret Service, asking them to warn him (or whoever) when one of these guys travel to Lemnos. Greek secret service added the guys to some "wanted list".

5) Ivan and Martin booked their flights and shortly after Secret Service got the message that the 2 booked a flight and arrive at x on Lemnos. Alarm bell goes on and as asked, they inform our mayor about this.

6) Because of 5) the two got observed since they left the plane. Of course they can't be arrested from the beginning, so they follow and observe them until they seen them taking some photos which could be seen as problematic. As this happened, Secret Service ordered the local police to arrest them before they can get back to the hotel where they can remove the pictures/movies from the equipment.

All fancy conspiracy theory? I dunno, but the Greeks are not idiots either, and know how to do such stuff.
Well, thanks for making what was basically the same thing as I was trying to describe, more clearer. One of my first questions is whether there is some sort of list that's "Similar to a terror watch list" and in your example, that answer would be yes. Next was whether or not Greek Security "Agents" would have needed to tail them as they went about their business of taking photos and the video. Again, the answer is yes.
I understand that airlines & airport's have a persons info well in advance of their actual arrival, what I was trying to understand is how the connection was made that determined that these two were employees of BIS and whether or not Greek officials really have the time on their hands to undertake something that borders on the line of being trivial.

Added 17 minutes later:

# PELHAM : That isn't what I said at all, certain people at BIS eg Ivan have their names in the public domain. If you were working in security, didn't like what BIS are doing you would only have to compare a very short list of names with a very short list of daily arrivals at Lemnos, the standard immigration PC systems could do it for you. Security is a very, very boring job which is why most in the field are the way they are (cunts).
As I said that isn't likely, just possible, the car being reported is most likely.
As for the problems caused locally by this don't underestimate the sort of bad feelings this can generate. Misunderstanding the way others see the world, their values and the way they react is what often leads to a mess like this. Greece might be in Europe and the EU but if you travel there and get to know the people you realise they are very different. Insults to family members, religion, nation, town etc are taken far more seriously than they would elsewhere such as the USA. Next time you are in Greece, dress up as a nun to go to a fancy dress party and see what happens to you lol.

Public domain or not, that doesn't explain what tips the security personnel from making the connection that two employees of BIS were coming to the island. The only way I see that occurring is if;
A) As I asked, was their a watch list of some kind?
B) The person who reviews the names and info of inbound tourists knows of the Arma 3 situation first hand. (Which, is assuming a lot.)
C) The security screener's are automatically checking the names of any and all Czech Nationals that come to the island.
I understand that they are a conservative society, however, I do not see their laws and their sentencing being all that more strict than Europe as a whole. Especially compared to the laws here in the US. Anders Breivik would never see the light of day here in the US, yet in Norway he's given 21trs. I know others from Belgium, Albania and Italy who all say its not uncommon for the European equivalent of a 1st Degree Murderer receiving 10yrs tops in jail. Can anyone show me anything that supports an argument that Greece's laws are exponentially more strict than other Euro countries?

Added 4 minutes later:

PELHAM:
Next time you are in Greece, dress up as a nun to go to a fancy dress party and see what happens to you lol.

I still won't be charged as a spy. Plus that begs to ask another question, what is going to offend Greek sensibilities more, dressing up and mocking Nuns and other religious officials?
Or making one's island into a video game?

Added 2 minutes later:

This post was edited by Foxhound (2012-09-23 16:06, ago)





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