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#46 Posted at 2012-09-12 09:37        
     
Maybe I'm wrong for the law in the US,here things are different.If for example they don't want you to photograph alternative routes to an airbase how can they make it so that you don't see it?They can't,so they only possible solution is to put signs,cameras and have guards patroling the area.I wouldn't use the word overreaction and I'll tell you why.Let's say that to my eyes since I know the game they aren't spies,there's a law and a guard sees someone taking pics near him,and he knows that according to law he shouldn't,this guard doesn't know if the photographer is Czech or working for Bohemia or why the pics are taken,in your opinion what should the guard do?Or what should the commanding officer do?Shouldn't he perform according to law?So the people that arrested them,if the indeed took prohibited pics didn't overreact.


The other issue is what the prosecutor etc will decide and that's more complex.You have the right to argue about overreaction if the decision they make is too cruel,but not for the fact that some people acted according to law and provided the proper security as you have said...

PS Once again I'm saying that I hope this has a quick and good ending for those two.


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#47 Posted at 2012-09-12 09:48        
     
Looks like this is going to be another red note on the board of things to note when developing for games.

1. - Gathering visual references such as photos/videos of buildings, locations, objects or people should be done with caution and done accordingly to the territory/country laws. It always best to read or know/Have knowledge of the rules, laws and regulations of the country/territory you are planning on visiting for the intent of gathering visual references/data.

Best wishes are to those two and hopes for they get out with a warning.

This post was edited by haystack15 (2012-09-12 09:54, ago)

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#48 Posted at 2012-09-12 10:27        
     
# Hakk : Maybe I'm wrong for the law in the US,here things are different.If for example they don't want you to photograph alternative routes to an airbase how can they make it so that you don't see it?They can't,so they only possible solution is to put signs,cameras and have guards patroling the area.

Alternative routes? So something civilians have access to? Your argument is invalidated by chain link fence.

And I still call it an overreaction, considering the multiple alternative actions that wouldn't waste time and money like this due to a total lack of common sense and disregard for decency.

Don't want someone in your yard? Fence it. Country going broke? Don't waste more money on a case where innocence can be explained in a 2 min conversation on the way back to the car, minus an SD card.

Common sense.


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#49 Posted at 2012-09-12 11:05        
     
So you disagree about the fact that it was prohibited to take pics based on the fact of the absence of the fence?Excuse me but that isn't common sense.And how do you know that the bases there didn't have a fance?That would be odd...
There is a law so noone can take pics without permit, that's what I call common sense.


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#50 Posted at 2012-09-12 11:22        
     
Just to clear things.I read greek news so the bad thing is not that they took pictures of plants etc.They had searched for roads and different ways to a specific base where the mm-40 exocet missiles are.They had night cameras.Moreover they had photos of roads and entry spots from different military bases.Well I belive that they should have asked for a permission.Or let the authorities know that they want this info in order to create a game.I believe that they would've helped those two guys to gather info.Just wanna clear some things up.Because everybody says that they just had photos of plants etc.No intention to offend anyone.


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#51 Posted at 2012-09-12 11:36        
     
Why would you make another account just to say that?


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#52 Posted at 2012-09-12 11:40        
     
I could not help it as I loled. *DRINK*


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#53 Posted at 2012-09-12 11:52        
     
# TheCapulet : Why would you make another account just to say that?

If you're talking about me it's my first post on this site.And I do not have another account on this site.


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#54 Posted at 2012-09-12 12:04        
     
# Hakk : So you disagree about the fact that it was prohibited to take pics based on the fact of the absence of the fence?Excuse me but that isn't common sense.And how do you know that the bases there didn't have a fance?That would be odd...
There is a law so noone can take pics without permit, that's what I call common sense.
No, I'm not disagreeing that it pissed 'someone' off enough to slap them with espionage charges. Though I'm actually a little skeptical about the existence of these permits, otherwise I think BIS would have had them long ago. I also never implied that the bases didn't have fences. But we can assume that the BIS employees climbed no fences based on the fact that they can eat and breath without injuring themselves. Anyone with even that much intelligence knows not to go vaulting military fences. And we didn't hear Greece authorities say that they broke into the base to get this information, which would be something pointed out right away in the media, as it's very clear that fear-mongering reigns even more there than here.

So if they have enough self preservation to make it this long in life, we can assume they were outside any hard military perimeter. So they took pictures of roads? And from the sounds of it, public roads at that? Did they also happen to include street signs, drainage styles, detailed road textures, roadside flora, and matching reference material for current in game shots? Who's to say that these dudes weren't preparing our next teaser game that BIS is so fond of putting on before a release or announcement?

The fact of the matter is, whether Greece deemed it appropriate or not, they have indeed overreacted to two totally innocent men, with their freedoms being violated in an unacceptable way.

Or are you disagreeing with their innocence? Lets remember that "espionage" is the only charge being brought against them so far.


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#55 Posted at 2012-09-12 12:19        
     
# TheCapulet : No, I'm not disagreeing that it pissed 'someone' off enough to slap them with espionage charges. Though I'm actually a little skeptical about the existence of these permits, otherwise I think BIS would have had them long ago. I also never implied that the bases didn't have fences. But we can assume that the BIS employees climbed no fences based on the fact that they can eat and breath without injuring themselves. Anyone with even that much intelligence knows not to go vaulting military fences. And we didn't hear Greece authorities say that they broke into the base to get this information, which would be something pointed out right away in the media, as it's very clear that fear-mongering reigns even more there than here.

So if they have enough self preservation to make it this long in life, we can assume they were outside any hard military perimeter. So they took pictures of roads? And from the sounds of it, public roads at that? Did they also happen to include street signs, drainage styles, detailed road textures, roadside flora, and matching reference material for current in game shots? Who's to say that these dudes weren't preparing our next teaser game that BIS is so fond of putting on before a release or announcement?

The fact of the matter is, whether Greece deemed it appropriate or not, they have indeed overreacted to two totally innocent men, with their freedoms being violated in an unacceptable way.

Or are you disagreeing with their innocence? Lets remember that "espionage" is the only charge being brought against them so far.

Look.There is another parameter that needs to be included.The fact that there are many occasions that people like those two guys take this kind of photos for turkish intelligence.It has already happened at least twice.So that's why authorities are more sensitive with this.And as I said they took pictures of roads that lead to military bases only.But couldn't they just ask a permission about it?


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#56 Posted at 2012-09-12 12:19        
     
First of all I don't have a 2nd account,mods can check my IP.
Secondly I'm not the one who will judge them.If we accept the fact that they took pics around bases,maybe they didn't do it on purpose,maybe they did it just for the game's realism,still they broke the law,that's what I'm saying and you can't understand.I'm not saying they're spies or anything I'm just saying give Greek authorities some break,in your eyes ofc they are innocent,in their eyes 2 unknown people were arrested with evidence (as news report),if you can understand that then you'll see the logic behind the arrest.The are no freedoms for someone who brakes the law (always according to what the news report).I can't believe they checked their gear found pics of flora and fauna and still arrested them,why should they?We aren't so crazy :P I think I made clear my argument,and won't continue because it's just a vicious circle.
Once again good luck to both of them!


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#57 Posted at 2012-09-12 12:27        
     
# TheCapulet : I think you're a little confused about how things work in the rest of the world (specially the US), friend.

If you travel to Langley, you can take whatever pictures you like as long as you have a camera in your hand. It'd be your right to do as you please. You don't need a 'permit' to take pictures around here. If you entered the base, your camera would be confiscated and returned upon exit. If there's anything that they don't want you to see or take pictures of, you do not see it. Period. If there's something sensitive that Greece wants hidden, two traveling tourists shouldn't be able to just derp along into it and start snapping photos. Proper security would be the ideal way to prevent overreactions like this.
and i could not have said it better my self. i mean u can walk aroubd the white house and take pictures of it all day. now the minute you do some thing that dont look right. then yea u got a issue. but if we dont want you to see some thing we hide it. if we dont want a picture taken we ask you not to take one. if we dont want you to step on are grass we will nicely post a sighn out in the grass and tell you to keep off. but are mostly to bussy to care.


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#58 Posted at 2012-09-12 12:29        
     
# Hakk : So you disagree about the fact that it was prohibited to take pics based on the fact of the absence of the fence?Excuse me but that isn't common sense.And how do you know that the bases there didn't have a fance?That would be odd...
There is a law so noone can take pics without permit, that's what I call common sense.
Geez, I go to bed for a few hours and things start to spiral a little.
The last thing i want is to see something like this divide the community, especially one as large and as strong as this one is. IMHO after reading the comments posted since I went to bed, I think as a whole, we're better off using our energies to see if there is anything that the community itself can do to help influence the situation in a positive manner. For lack of a better term, there will be plenty of time for BDA/debate later when these guys are free.
Personally, since I'm an American, I have the tendency to get into "debates" all the time. As a point of interest, I tend NOT to use Wikipedia as a primary source, however, many articles listed on there will have links from where the person who wrote the page obtained their info. When it comes to military info and anything related, I use http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html next to Janes Defense, I'm not aware of a site that provides better info. So,
http://www.globalsecurity.org
Of course, having said that I used their search engine to find more info and of course, where does it lead?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demilitarized_zone#Europe
Despite the lack of independent sources, the author of the page appears to have some knowledge of the complex situation in the Aegean Sea Region. It is the same link from which w0lle displayed earlier. I would just add one more part to it, (Also in hopes that I do not incur the wrath of Foxhound or any other moderator for that matter)

"The question of the demilitarized status of some major Greek islands is complicated by a number of facts. Several of the Greek islands in the eastern Aegean as well as the Turkish straits region were placed under various regimes of demilitarization in different international treaties. The regimes developed over time, resulting in difficulties of treaty-interpretation."
The following link provides a very brief index of sorts of major disputed areas throughout the world.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/disputes-x.htm

Again, I think we're better off working together to see if we as a community and a very large one at that, can influence the situation in a positive manner.
An idea I had for those of us here in the States is to contact the cable channel G4. More importantly one of its most popular programs, "Attack of the show" http://www.g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/
At the very least maybe we can get some attention since "Gaming" is what they're all about.
I've also sent a message via Facebook to one of the shows hosts, Candice Bailey, who I had the privilege of meeting three years ago as she attended a charity event that myself and others had put together in Hollywood.
Any contact info for G4 itself should be found on the site of the G4 link I provided.

EDIT- Disregard my comment about "those of us here in the states." I see no reason why anyone from anywhere can't contact them.

This post was edited by GenPatton43 (2012-09-12 12:46, ago)


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#59 Posted at 2012-09-12 12:30        
     
# Hakk : Maybe I'm wrong for the law in the US,here things are different.If for example they don't want you to photograph alternative routes to an airbase how can they make it so that you don't see it?They can't,so they only possible solution is to put signs,cameras and have guards patroling the area.I wouldn't use the word overreaction and I'll tell you why.Let's say that to my eyes since I know the game they aren't spies,there's a law and a guard sees someone taking pics near him,and he knows that according to law he shouldn't,this guard doesn't know if the photographer is Czech or working for Bohemia or why the pics are taken,in your opinion what should the guard do?Or what should the commanding officer do?Shouldn't he perform according to law?So the people that arrested them,if the indeed took prohibited pics didn't overreact.


The other issue is what the prosecutor etc will decide and that's more complex.You have the right to argue about overreaction if the decision they make is too cruel,but not for the fact that some people acted according to law and provided the proper security as you have said...

PS Once again I'm saying that I hope this has a quick and good ending for those two.


umm if guard saw u taking pictures but was no notable sign . or even if there was in the us we just take the dam thing and smash it. simple as that.

Added 6 minutes later:

ether way some body said we need to work together. and i completely aggre so we might all need to shut up and say yes they were in the wrong yes they are sorry. no they will not comeback any time soon. and they are not spies and please. dont be so mean as to ruin multiple lifes on a small misunderstanding/over reaction to current events.

This post was edited by kazenokizu (2012-09-12 12:36, ago)


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#60 Posted at 2012-09-12 15:02        
     
# W0lle : Yep, just before this goes online we should check with BI what their opinion is about because:

They know more details and their next steps than any of us. And we should prevent doing anything that could cause more damage in the end than it does good. Let's not forget that this is something serious and the poor guys will pay the bill in the end for just taking some landscape photos.
I don't think that is our business but one between Bohemia Interactive and Greek government. The team making the photos surely has been seen and since they were not shot but arrested it was obviously not okay to take these photos. The guards at that base were obviously not sleeping that day.

Do you agree?





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