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#61 Posted at 2012-09-12 15:47        
     
# Rainbird : I don't think that is our business but one between Bohemia Interactive and Greek government. The team making the photos surely has been seen and since they were not shot but arrested it was obviously not okay to take these photos. The guards at that base were obviously not sleeping that day.

Do you agree?



I would say that these days, online communities are becoming not too dissimilar to those of real communities and as such, if members of a community feel there is a need to protest against something that appears as being unjust or immoral, than they have that right to exercise that belief as long as its within a) Legal bounds and b) is not being done at the behest of the very organization they are attempting to support. in this case that's BIS, so while sending emails to a local embassy may seem harmless, major institutions can see such a campaign as a form of bullying. So, I think wolle's mention of finding out from BIS themselves before anything is done, is prudent and logical. We are after all, not talking about players being held in a Chernarus mission here, but instead two VERY real lives. So a sense of balance needs to be determined between exercising the right to protest and the greater good of the individuals in question.

Wouldn't you agree?

Added 2 hours 6 minutes later:

# rafael52 : Just to clear things.I read greek news so the bad thing is not that they took pictures of plants etc.They had searched for roads and different ways to a specific base where the mm-40 exocet missiles are.They had night cameras.Moreover they had photos of roads and entry spots from different military bases.Well I belive that they should have asked for a permission.Or let the authorities know that they want this info in order to create a game.I believe that they would've helped those two guys to gather info.Just wanna clear some things up.Because everybody says that they just had photos of plants etc.No intention to offend anyone.

Feel free to call me just another "Crazy American", but I continue to see the mentioning of individuals attempting to discover roads that lead to the airbase or military installation. Again, maybe its me, but are there no maps of Lemnos?
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart@$$ tho it may sound like it. But I'm having a hard time understanding the value of these "Roads"

This post was edited by GenPatton43 (2012-09-12 17:55, ago)


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#62 Posted at 2012-09-12 18:28        
     
I don't think we need to do anything.
I'm sure Bohemia are aware of all of our concerns through reading this site and the Studio Forums.

Who would have thought being a software developer could be so exciting, hehe.

We'll all pledge our support in the usual manner when ArmA3 is released
..and not because it depicts pinpoint acurate road entrances to real-world military bases.
I think they've learnt that valuable lesson.

Be thankful it's Greece; I think it's fair to assume they'll be treated decently.

....that's all folks....!

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#63 Posted at 2012-09-12 18:39        
     
# Foxhound : @all
Although you are all welcome to discuss this issue I urge everyone to respect everyone for his own opinion. You can disagree with his/her opinion but you have to respect it! Failing to do so will get me mad!

Additionally we do not allow any politics on Armaholic. So leave politics out of this thread, no matter if politics are involved!

Understood Fox.


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#64 Posted at 2012-09-12 18:40        
     
I see everyone mentioning the military airbaise on Limnos. But when I look on the map, I see only the Limnos International Airport. Wich I presume is civilian. So I asume, that the military airbaise is the same as the International Airport.
Aren't the greeks violating some kind of geneva (or other kind of international) convention by doing this? By having military jets/planes permanently stationed there means that they are "hidden" in a civilian airport (or what is the status of the airfiled if it is both military and interntaional?). Wich could be used as an argument by the devils's lawyer, that they are using civilians/civilian buildings/civilian complex as a shield. Also if the military base is combined with the Civilian International Airport, it is very disputable how much the airport should be protected from local tourists because of spying.


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#65 Posted at 2012-09-12 18:45        
     
Be thankful it's Greece; I think it's fair to assume they'll be treated decently.

Not better than anywhere i'd say. Greece if i remeber right is the european country with the higher density of population in prisons. And being french, i know what a shitty prison system is.
Regarding the respects of rights and fair justice, i don't know much about greece but it seems to be a pretty decent country.

Now, i don't even know why i said that. Not of use to anyone here, sorry about the digression.


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#66 Posted at 2012-09-12 18:48        
     
# GenPatton43 : I would say that these days, online communities are becoming not too dissimilar to those of real communities and as such, if members of a community feel there is a need to protest against something that appears as being unjust or immoral, than they have that right to exercise that belief as long as its within a) Legal bounds and b) is not being done at the behest of the very organization they are attempting to support. in this case that's BIS, so while sending emails to a local embassy may seem harmless, major institutions can see such a campaign as a form of bullying. So, I think wolle's mention of finding out from BIS themselves before anything is done, is prudent and logical. We are after all, not talking about players being held in a Chernarus mission here, but instead two VERY real lives. So a sense of balance needs to be determined between exercising the right to protest and the greater good of the individuals in question.

Wouldn't you agree?

Added 2 hours 6 minutes later:



Feel free to call me just another "Crazy American", but I continue to see the mentioning of individuals attempting to discover roads that lead to the airbase or military installation. Again, maybe its me, but are there no maps of Lemnos?
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart@$$ tho it may sound like it. But I'm having a hard time understanding the value of these "Roads"

Well I don't think that a map says that there is a military base with whatever's inside.But anyway I think that it was important for the authorities because in many occasions turkish agents have been caught to take photos of roads,installations etc.That's a pretty serious factor that needs to be taken into consideration.And I tell me.Wouldn't be more reasonable to ask for a permission from the greek government?Anyway.IMHO if they had asked for a permission or maybe help from the greek army to get info for the game it'd be much better.Finally I hope those two guys will be free soon and I wish them luck.And just one last question.If they took photos of an US or Chinese airbase or any other big country would you swear on this country like wolle?I'm not going to do any political comment eventhough user W0lle did.

This post was edited by rafael52 (2012-09-12 19:05, ago)


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#67 Posted at 2012-09-12 18:58        
     
Derk Yall

As I said numerous times before, Lemnos is a demilitarized zone - officially at last. But I had a guy this morning who confirmed that there are 5 or 6 military installations on Lemnos... So obviously the Greeks don't care about the treaties they once signed. If that's the case, it's clear why they overreacted like they did.

And they totally overreacted because instead arresting them, they could have handled this like civilized people: By either asking them to delete the photos/movies or simply confiscating the equipment and sending them home.

And as said before: They surely haven't breached any perimeter to take the photos. Everything they photographed can be seen by anyone visiting that place. A simple 'Please stop taking photos' would have been enough. I also have taken photos on exhibitions etc before and were asked to stop taking them or in worst case to delete the photos. But that was always in civilized countries - or maybe I was just lucky. But Greece either gave up on civilization or is on its way into a police state. :(

Anyway I feel sorry for the Greece, because this incident causing even more damage to their bad reputation as they have already. I for sure will not set my feet into that country anymore. There's better places to be than among these paranoid chaps.

# Derk Yall : I see everyone mentioning the military airbaise on Limnos. But when I look on the map, I see only the Limnos International Airport. Wich I presume is civilian. So I asume, that the military airbaise is the same as the International Airport.
Aren't the greeks violating some kind of geneva (or other kind of international) convention by doing this? By having military jets/planes permanently stationed there means that they are "hidden" in a civilian airport (or what is the status of the airfiled if it is both military and interntaional?).
Not really. There are many civilian airports, both international and local which are used by the military as well. Been on many of them already and taking photos, also from military equipment. And so far no one even bothered to check what photos I was taking there.

As someone has said before: If the military has something to hide from the public, then they usually make sure it's not seen by the public. Everyone knows that just placing signs don't stop people from taking photos of sensitive stuff.

This post was edited by W0lle (2012-09-12 19:09, ago)


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#68 Posted at 2012-09-12 19:14        
     
# W0lle : Derk Yall

As I said numerous times before, Lemnos is a demilitarized zone - officially at last. But I had a guy this morning who confirmed that there are 5 or 6 military installations on Lemnos... So obviously the Greeks don't care about the treaties they once signed. If that's the case, it's clear why they overreacted like they did.

And they totally overreacted because instead arresting them, they could have handled this like civilized people: By either asking them to delete the photos/movies or simply confiscating the equipment and sending them home.

And as said before: They surely haven't breached any perimeter to take the photos. Everything they photographed can be seen by anyone visiting that place. A simple 'Please stop taking photos' would have been enough. I also have taken photos on exhibitions etc before and were asked to stop taking them or in worst case to delete the photos. But that was always in civilized countries - or maybe I was just lucky. But Greece either gave up on civilization or is on its way into a police state. :(

Anyway I feel sorry for the Greece, because this incident causing even more damage to their bad reputation as they have already. I for sure will not set my feet into that country anymore. There's better places to be than among these paranoid chaps.


Not really. There are many civilian airports, both international and local which are used by the military as well. Been on many of them already and taking photos, also from military equipment. And so far no one even bothered to check what photos I was taking there.

As someone has said before: If the military has something to hide from the public, then they usually make sure it's not seen by the public. Everyone knows that just placing signs don't stop people from taking photos of sensitive stuff.

The Lausanne treaty was changed only for the turkish side and those demilitarised zones were un-militarised http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Turkish_Straits so in response the greek gonverment does not recognize the Lausanne treaty.And about the perimeter.With the equipment that anyone can find nowdays you dont have to really get close in order to take photos.But I believe this happened because there were 3 or more times in the past that turkish agents were captured with this kind of photos and stuff.So it's a very sensitive point for the gonverment.Just take this into consideration mate.


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#69 Posted at 2012-09-12 19:16        
     
# Derk Yall : I see everyone mentioning the military airbaise on Limnos. But when I look on the map, I see only the Limnos International Airport. Wich I presume is civilian. So I asume, that the military airbaise is the same as the International Airport.
Aren't the greeks violating some kind of geneva (or other kind of international) convention by doing this? By having military jets/planes permanently stationed there means that they are "hidden" in a civilian airport (or what is the status of the airfiled if it is both military and interntaional?). Wich could be used as an argument by the devils's lawyer, that they are using civilians/civilian buildings/civilian complex as a shield. Also if the military base is combined with the Civilian International Airport, it is very disputable how much the airport should be protected from local tourists because of spying.

As far as i am aware there is no law or treaty that says military & civilian aircraft can't share the same location. However, they are usually segregated from each other on the base and that's usually done on the military's own accord.
I know here in the US its quite common. The closest example to me would be in Atlantic City New Jersey. Its a full fledged International Airport, but its also home to New Jerseys 177th TFW(F-16's) and is considered part of the Eastern Air Defense Sector. I looked on Google Earth last night and the most recent photo I saw of the Lemnos field, there didn't appear to be much there to support a regular military force. There were empty revetments, but no Hardened Aircraft Shelters. In fact I don't even think I saw a single plane. But again, that was six years ago so things could be a lot different now.


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#70 Posted at 2012-09-12 19:16        
     
Check out these spies. Just look at the way he's staring at that plant, surveying its military capabilities....


yes, they were taking pictures of a wild variety of yellow marihuana plant, that is why they might have been arrested :)
With that aspect, they look like real spies. yes....

The Greeks have not realised yet how many tourists BI is gonna bring them. How many ArmA players have never dreamnt of visiting their favourite island?


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This post was edited by Foxhound (2012-09-12 19:54, ago)


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#71 Posted at 2012-09-12 19:19        
     
Wolle: Thanks for clearing this out. ;) I was aware that there are military airport used by civilians, but not that there are civilian airports used by military. Now it's more clear to me.

As you said, I am also afraid that this overreacting will only make damage to the Greece reputation. :(


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#72 Posted at 2012-09-12 19:33        
     
# rafael52 : Well I don't think that a map says that there is a military base with whatever's inside.

That wasn't the issue i was alluding to, in previous posts it was discussed
rafael52:
ust to clear things.I read greek news so the bad thing is not that they took pictures of plants etc.They had searched for roads and different ways to a specific base
That too me suggests their looking for roads first and then a military installation.
The same was said here;
Hakk:
If for example they don't want you to photograph alternative routes to an airbase how can they make it so that you don't see it?

Alternate routes and roads, that appears o be the discussion first and than we get into the them leading to military bases
So that was just the root of my question, one can go on Google Earth or other device and find roads or buy a map there correct?


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#73 Posted at 2012-09-12 20:19        
     
It's obvious that the BI employees did not have permission to take photo's or films of the bases from the appropriate authorities? I may be out of touch but aren't you supposed to get some permit or something to take photos at military installations? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I can understand why they would have been arrested on espionage charges, I just hope that common sense prevails and this is all sorted out sooner rather than later, for everyones sake.


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#74 Posted at 2012-09-12 20:22        
     
# rafael52 : The Lausanne treaty was changed only for the turkish side and those demilitarised zones were un-militarised http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Turkish_Straits so in response the greek gonverment does not recognize the Lausanne treaty.And about the perimeter.With the equipment that anyone can find nowdays you dont have to really get close in order to take photos.But I believe this happened because there were 3 or more times in the past that turkish agents were captured with this kind of photos and stuff.So it's a very sensitive point for the gonverment.Just take this into consideration mate.
We're not ignoring that fact. There are bad guys in this world and we all have to do our part to protect ourselves from them. But that doesn't change the fact that the actions taken after the initial meeting, or even after interrogation, are not those taken with fair justice and rationality in mind. They were arrested for taking pictures of publicly accessed roads. If that's really 'against the law', then it shouldn't be. (And likely isn't, since they were charged with only Espionage.)

Judging only by the few Greeks chiming in this thread so far, it seems to me as if you guys think that it's totally acceptable to royally screw these guys over in the name of 'national security'. If this happened here, I'd be pissed, and you can bet your ass that I'd be printing off letters for every single idiot on Capital Hill.

What's happening here is 100% unjust and IMO should be illegal. The actions taken by Greek Officials, while possibly having good intentions in the beginning, have spiraled into what can only be explained as Greek authorities on a massive power trip trying to make an example (once again) in the name of fear. And that IS NOT justice.

This post was edited by TheCapulet (2012-09-12 20:53, ago)


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#75 Posted at 2012-09-12 20:22        
     
# GenPatton43 : Alternate routes and roads, that appears o be the discussion first and than we get into the them leading to military bases
So that was just the root of my question, one can go on Google Earth or other device and find roads or buy a map there correct?

Well.I just searched it on google.Read 3-4 greek sites.One thing I got from the info is that they didn't have photos from roads only.They had photos of military bases and different military installations.So I guess photos weren't so innocent as the ones that were published.And I don't think that the officials have any reason to give fake information to media. http://www.naftemporiki.gr/news/cstory.asp?id=2234471
Just translate it.You'll get the point.





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