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#91 Posted at 2012-09-12 23:17        
     
Deeply sorry Fox, i guess i didn't see the political aspect of that sentence when writing it, was merely an extension of my point. I'll edit that right away then.

Edit: I kept the beginning of the post, not being sure if you were refering to that as well. I'd tell you to feel free to remove it if needed, but seeing as you're the boss anyway... Sorry again.


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#92 Posted at 2012-09-12 23:19        
     
Wow there's a lot of utter nonsense going around about this.

It all boils down to simple facts - if there is a law in Greece that says you cannot take photos of military installations, then these guys have broke it clearly and completely and will be sentenced accordingly. If there is no specific law and it comes under a wide-reaching Espionage act then it'll be upto the lawyers to battle it out in court. At least these two have got the support of their company behind them... oh wait, cancel that, their company's stance is they were "on holiday". Talk about being thrown under the bus.

# W0lle : Look, they could have simply checked the identity of these guys, then they would have realized in minutes (if they are slow) that they are Czech and not Turkish.

Second, instead arresting them; they simply could have confiscated the equipment and expelled them from the island/country. The two guys surely wouldn't have visited Greece anymore, but now not only 2 people won't but most probably many, many more. And as I read it, Greece desperately needs tourists visiting the country.
As I said before: with this the Greece damage their reputation even more than it already is.

But maybe then they should treat them like guests, not criminals...

These police officers must be amazing at their jobs to know that two people with advanced high resolution photography equipment are no threat within MINUTES of encountering them taking day and night photos of various angles of a military installation...

Much like your pointless argument about the demilitarised zone (wikipedia? really?) it's a lot of nonsense. If there's any suspicion of potential espionage or similar then as a law enforcement officer you will not under any circumstances either "check their identity and then let them go" or "confiscate equipment then expel them". Obviously you have no experience in this field nor are you applying any common sense to the predicament the authorities were faced with - also your grandeur sentiment about how this minor news story will radically affect the Greek tourism industry is, frankly, laughable.


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#93 Posted at 2012-09-12 23:41        
     
# Nikeleye : At least these two have got the support of their company behind them... oh wait, cancel that, their company's stance is they were "on holiday". Talk about being thrown under the bus.

Yep what a sad story isn't it? First arrested for 'espionage' and then dropped and forgotten by their friends and co-workers.

You sir, obviously have simply no idea what you're talking about. Or you registered just for trolling and bashing BI.

If it's a 'minor story' or not, time will tell. ;-)


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#94 Posted at 2012-09-12 23:57        
     
There is so little info about this, all Greek news articles are basically the same one paragraph police report.
I hope they see a judge soon and either have the case dropped or get released with bail.


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#95 Posted at 2012-09-13 00:01        
     
I have a message for those who suggested to start petitions and/or sent emails to the Greek embassy etc.

Please do not start any such ventures!

Marek: At this stage please refrain any such action, it could do more harm than good.


Other than that feel free to continue to discuss this!


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#96 Posted at 2012-09-13 00:17        
     
As a member of the United States military, I can tell you that it is common sop to investigate suspicious activity, and someone taking pictures on/ of a military base definitely constitutes as suspicious activity. There is a reason why most military bases are blacked out on most commercial GPS systems. There could be sensitive information. If I was on duty and I saw that, I would definitely bring that person in or at the very least take their camera and delete the pictures. Maybe these devs should use their heads next time and ask the command of that base if they can take pictures.


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#97 Posted at 2012-09-13 00:34        
     
# W0lle : Yep what a sad story isn't it? First arrested for 'espionage' and then dropped and forgotten by their friends and co-workers.

You sir, obviously have simply no idea what you're talking about. Or you registered just for trolling and bashing BI.

If it's a 'minor story' or not, time will tell. ;-)

Actually unlike you, I was talking from real-life experience. Unless you're in the military or civilian law enforcement industries you really have no business declaring what the Greek authorities should or should not have done in the circumstance.

Also if you are questioning my quote then I suggest you get your facts straight - the two people arrested have claimed to be capturing media for ArmA 3 on behalf of BIS. BIS on the other hand now claim the two were on holiday of their own will.

Oh and FWIW, I didn't register to troll/bash BI - I registered (quite a while ago, actually) for ArmA discussion and promoting the milsim group I'm in.

So I have both an informed idea what I'm talking about and I didn't register to "troll", sorry about that.


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#98 Posted at 2012-09-13 01:12        
     
# rafael52 : Well.I just searched it on google.Read 3-4 greek sites.One thing I got from the info is that they didn't have photos from roads only.They had photos of military bases and different military installations.So I guess photos weren't so innocent as the ones that were published.And I don't think that the officials have any reason to give fake information to media. http://www.naftemporiki.gr/news/cstory.asp?id=2234471
Just translate it.You'll get the point.


Geez, I'm late to the party again.
OK,read the article, though I didn't really need to because initially, the discussion was about roads and alternate routes. I will freely admit I am not familiar with Greek laws, however I do find it highly irregular that taking pictures of buildings on that reside on what is mostly a civilian airfield is odd. Its not like we're talking about Area 51. However, the island is not far from Turkey itself, so its understandable I guess. I guess I'm simply used to the fact that if you're on the civilian side of the fence, here in the US than its its fair game. I live near a base that until recently being closed, had areas along the fenceline where people could park, get out of their cars and watch as A-10's, F/A-18's or P-3s take off and land.

Added 3 minutes later:

# TheCapulet : In free countries, if you can see it, you can take a picture, memorize it, draw it, paint it, whatever you'd like.

Free people visiting countries which are assumed free can't be expected to know and follow laws that are contrary to modern liberty.

By the looks of the island, they very easily could have taken these pictures from a good distance away by using elevation.

Which leads me to another question. Had these guys been taking photos from the balcony of say, a hotel room. Do the authorities kick down the door and arrest them then also?

Added 12 minutes later:

# rafael52 : So in USA,Canada,France,Germany,Italy etc.You can go to military bases and take pictures?If it is like this.Ok.

In the US, if you are on the civilian side of the fence, yes. Now, that doesn't mean that if you are there for a lengthy amount of time that a patrol car on the military side of the fence or a civilian police car on the civilian side, may not stop and speak to you briefly.
Here is a satellite photo of the base I live nearby, the yellow line that runs along the perimeter is a major road, Route 611.. That same line is also the actual boundary of the installation itself. If you look closely, you can actually see 3 A-10's some smaller aircraft and at least one P-3. If I were on the civilian side of the base and I could see them, than I'd have every right to take a picture. Even as they take off and land and, even after 9/11


This post was edited by GenPatton43 (2012-09-13 01:29, ago)


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#99 Posted at 2012-09-13 01:45        
     
# Nikeleye : Actually unlike you, I was talking from real-life experience. Unless you're in the military or civilian law enforcement industries you really have no business declaring what the Greek authorities should or should not have done in the circumstance.
Yeah I'm just a random idiot with no clue about anything. Or maybe it could be that I live in civilized country and not a police state where you're thrown in jail for taking the 'wrong pictures'.

the two people arrested have claimed to be capturing media for ArmA 3 on behalf of BIS. BIS on the other hand now claim the two were on holiday of their own will.
What else shall they say? That they sent them there for taking pictures of sensitive military installations? Now yeah, that surely would help the 2 guys a lot!

Unlike you, I know at least one of them pretty good. We're not talking here about some stupid kids but grown men which surely haven't broken any base perimeters to take pictures. And now the big surprise:
And now consider this possibility: They really came to Lemnos as paying tourists and while there used the chance to take some more pictures for the game they are working on.


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#100 Posted at 2012-09-13 01:46        
     
# rafael52 : In greece law says that you cannot take photos of military bases.
I'm skeptical. Can you cite this law? Until then, you're no longer allowed to continue saying "it's against the law!!!" over and over again. ;)

Added 14 minutes later:

# Nikeleye : Actually unlike you, I was talking from real-life experience. Unless you're in the military or civilian law enforcement industries you really have no business declaring what the Greek authorities should or should not have done in the circumstance.

Hmm, in that case, I can speak from experience too. And I can tell you right now that my boss (our local police chief) would be pissed, not only if I didn't at least investigate something in the same vein as happened in Greece, but would also be more pissed if I didn't use a bit of common sense and real police work in figuring out what they're doing there and why, arresting them and in turn wasting a massive amount of tax payer dollars instead of realizing that they're two harmless dudes out snapping pics of what any civi can see unaided.

Sorry, but what you're explaining does in fact sound like it borders on being a police state.

This post was edited by TheCapulet (2012-09-13 02:00, ago)


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#101 Posted at 2012-09-13 02:17        
     
Honestly, at this point you all are just blowing smoke, no one knows the facts, and its a waiting game. Its down to you all just fighting at each other and trying to piss the other person off.

Why this thread isn't locked yet is beyond me.

None of you can talk, neither can I until things move forward and we hear more via news. You can guess all you want and knit pick if Pics are OKAY or not. But at this point, you all are just picking at each other for no reason at all, expect to show who does more Google than the other person.


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#102 Posted at 2012-09-13 02:20        
     
# Eiighty : I can tell you that it is common sop to investigate suspicious activity, and someone taking pictures on/ of a military base definitely constitutes as suspicious activity

And as a former member I agree, though it is also dependent on the base itself.


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#103 Posted at 2012-09-13 02:40        
     
Its not like they hopped the fence with NVGs and a combat knife....a bunch of nerdy game devs were taking pictures of the exterior of a demilitarized zone in the daytime. I'm sure they broke some kind of law, so stick them with "Illegal photography", don't lock them up for espionage!

This post was edited by RyanHunter24 (2012-09-13 02:51, ago)


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#104 Posted at 2012-09-13 02:56        
     
# KilrBe3 : Honestly, at this point you all are just blowing smoke, no one knows the facts, and its a waiting game. Its down to you all just fighting at each other and trying to piss the other person off.

Why this thread isn't locked yet is beyond me.

None of you can talk, neither can I until things move forward and we hear more via news. You can guess all you want and knit pick if Pics are OKAY or not. But at this point, you all are just picking at each other for no reason at all, expect to show who does more Google than the other person.
There's nothing wrong with healthy debate. Sure, we all have strong opinions that translate into passionate words. But we all respect each other here, either way. No matter what, we all know these guys aren't spies and wish them a speedy trip out of Greece. We all have that in common at least.


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#105 Posted at 2012-09-13 05:18        
     
We all know that the military is usually quite sensitive in terms of secrecy, even if it is totally senseless. For example, a few kilometers from my town is a big barracks where a tank brigade is stationed. Every two years they make a "day of the open door" where they show all their stuff to the public, i.e. you can stick your head into a Fennek, Dingo or Panzerhaubitze 2000, walk through a CH-53G, take a G36, MG3 or Panzerfaust in your hands and watch a show where Leopards, Marders and Panzergrenadiers attack a village of cardboard houses etc., and of course you can photograph everything presented there. Usually several tens of thousand visitors are there, a bit depending on the weather. But if I came there a week later and was taking photos from the grass or road outside the fence, I would probably attract some attention as well. Security guys usually think more about spies and terrorists than the weird stuff that a lot of people do, be it plane-spotting or making videogames.

So I'm not really surprised that they were approached by the police or military security. If they are however arrest for a longer time (longer than it takes to explain any misunderstanding) and actually brought to court and maybe even found guilty and sentenced, then it is obviously a hefty overreaction and unfair treatment, and obviously someone within the authorities wants to make an example of them, i.e. it might be a political case.

That's why I really think a wide public outrage might indeed help them. Not bad though that news media actually published the story. Even our local newspaper here reported it, albeit not as big as appropriate. But we need more details anyway, and I guess this is not something that is over quickly.





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